D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[tetrasodium]

The difference is that a computer does a specific thing..it computes.

'Magic' doesn't doesn't have a defined mechanism. It is, explicitly, a supernatural/mysterious way to do the impossible..and that's it.

In the context of fantasy worldbuilding, it's a get out of jail free card. Yeah it works, but let's not act like it means anything.

Magic has a lot of things it does. You might as well be claiming that a fireball isn't magic because it's a ranged evocation burst. If Bob makes his sword coat itself in flames to do extra damage it does not matter if he did it with verbal somatic & material components or if he drank herbal supplements that change his body in ways that allow him to because both are magic.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Y'all are acting like "magic" is the enemy. It not.

It's just grossly misinterpreting what is actually going on and reducing 'magic' to handwavium as opposed to a specific force in the universe.

The quote Joe Quesada who was trying to excuse bad writing: 'It's magic, we don't have to explain it'.

Treating everything not of Earth as 'magic' also just sandblasts all detail and interest out of the world. Giant Owls and such aren't these fantastic, magnificent creatures that are something real in their world, they're just a lazy blob of pixie dust and kitten wishes. Adamantine isn't a new an exciting element, it's just another thing the universe stuck in the 'doesn't care enough to explain' box.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Magic has a lot of things it does. You might as well be claiming that a fireball isn't magic because it's a ranged evocation burst. If Bob makes his sword coat itself in flames to do extra damage it does not matter if he did it with verbal somatic & material components or if he drank herbal supplements that change his body in ways that allow him to because both are magic.

What is the specific mechanism that makes magic "work"?

And to be clear, I'm not saying that magic shouldn't exist. There's just no inherit merit in 'magical' explanations for fantasy phenomena. It's not better, just dramatically more convenient.

 

[Azzy]

I have an easy answer to all this stuff: ITS MAGIC. Dragons and giants exist because magic. The whole world is suffused with magic. Really talented people learn to use it to do extraordinary things. They call it psionics or ki or rage or divine power or bloodlines or spellcasting or artifice, but it's all magic. Y'all are acting like "magic" is the enemy. It not. The whole bloody game runs on magic. If you just allow the fighter to be magical too, you've solved the problem.

PC: 1: My fighter jumps from one tower to the next.
PC 2: How can your character jump that far? It's farther than the world record!
PC 1: Magic. My fighter <insert rationale here>
PC 2: Oh. Cool.

See, how simple was that? You can call it Martial Power, or whatever Book of Nine Swords called it. It doesn't take much. But it's still some type of magical/supernatural ability.

PC: 1: My fighter jumps from one tower to the next.
PC 2: How can your character jump that far? It's farther than the world record!
PC 1: Because my fighter lives in the same world in which dragons can fly, giant arthropods don't asphyxiate just by existing, giants don't collapse under their own weight, etc.
PC 2: Oh. That makes sense, it's a fantasy setting after all.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes, magic is an easy out to any 'why' question in D&D. But all you're really doing by answering a question with "it's magic" is saying "it just is. Shut up" with nicer words.

Consider the difference between "I jump really far"..and "I magically jump really far"

The only thing the second statement tells you that the fist one doesn't is that you don't have to worry about the why. You gain exactly zero incremental information about the mechanics of the jump.

Edit: fun game.. swap out "magically" for "heroically". Provides the same level of justification without magic.

Not to me it doesn't. Magic lets you do things that are otherwise impossible. Just being a hero does not.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's just grossly misinterpreting what is actually going on and reducing 'magic' to handwavium as opposed to a specific force in the universe.

The quote Joe Quesada who was trying to excuse bad writing: 'It's magic, we don't have to explain it'.

Treating everything not of Earth as 'magic' also just sandblasts all detail and interest out of the world. Giant Owls and such aren't these fantastic, magnificent creatures that are something real in their world, they're just a lazy blob of pixie dust and kitten wishes. Adamantine isn't a new an exciting element, it's just another thing the universe stuck in the 'doesn't care enough to explain' box.

Well, you should specify what kind of magic is causing a particular effect, or it will be just as you say. No matter the explanation though, it's still stuff that would otherwise be impossible.

 

[Aldarc]

Fighters can exert influence… it’s called character choice… when character choice is more challenging we use skill checks to moderate. When you want to skip those rules and force an outcome you have magic. Incidentally available to 92% of classes if they want it.

I hope you can understand why there are people, myself included, who do not find your answer to be a compelling argument.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Are FTL drives magic?

Were ion drives before someone made it real?

Was there a period in time when the platypus as magic and the unicorn wasn't?

This definition of magic to mean 'fictional from the real-world perspective' does not work for me.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I have an easy answer to all this stuff: ITS MAGIC. Dragons and giants exist because magic. The whole world is suffused with magic. Really talented people learn to use it to do extraordinary things. They call it psionics or ki or rage or divine power or bloodlines or spellcasting or artifice, but it's all magic.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the Mythic Martial is not magical in this reductionist definition of magic. It's just not that useful a definition.

IMO the Mythic Martial should access the "magic" that allows dragons to fly and stone giants to walk. It's power source is "world magic" based on exageration of the physical. It's definitely not traditional Arcane, Divine, Primal D&D spellcasting.

I really don't care what we call it but there is something different about what the Hulk can do as a martial -- super jumps, ripping up buildings, earthquake ground punches, survive in extreme conditions, sonic waves from thunderclaps, fast healing, break out of mystical bonds, terrifying mooks with a scream, etc.

And what Dr. Strange or a D&D Wizard can do -- teleport, summon monsters, call down lightning, shapechange, read minds, etc.

Mythic Martials should get Hulk physical magic and Aaragorn leadership magic not Dr. Strange magic as that is what keeps them "martial". (other stuff could be layered on but shouldn't be required)

They could also benefit from reliable abilities that mechanically bypass the "1 action = 1 discrete effect" and go to narrative completion.

 

[Mecheon]

I have an easy answer to all this stuff: ITS MAGIC. Dragons and giants exist because magic.

Except, it can't be per the game's own instructions. If you throw a giant insect into an anti-magic field it doesn't immediately succumb to the square cube law and end up being crushed by gravity and suffocating. Dragons don't have to face physics and be unable to lift off from the ground. Giants don't immediately have their ankles shatter due to being a really poor shape for their size.

If constant magic is what allows these to survive, then the abscence of it should have appropriate effects upon those creatures. But, it doesn't.

You can't have "If you want to do anything above what is considered regular for humans you have to use magic" and "These creatures can naturally survive in areas specifically devoid of magic" at the same time. You can either apply physics and have to kill off a good 50% of things considered traditionally D&D, or handwave the physics and let fighters do stuff more at home in an action movie.