Try again <sigh> Monks and Improve Natural Attack

[takyris]

I think it's legal, but I think it violates the intended spirit, and I wouldn't allow it in one of my games without a lot of thought beforehand.

My reasoning for thinking it violates the intended spirit is that it approaches the 3.0 Haste level of "You're either foolish or reaching hard for some other build if you don't take this"-dom.

I think most fighters would benefit from Power Attack, but they don't all absolutely need it -- maybe they're duelists who go with Expertise or fast guys who are gunning for Spring Attack or specialists taking the Focus/Specialization/Improved Critical path.

But the only monk for whom Improved Natural Attack isn't a no-brainer as soon as the monk qualifies for it is a monk who isn't focused on melee combat of any kind -- which is an awfully big reach for a monk.

Hence my "Maybe". It seems like a clear-cut "Yes" by the rules, but I wouldn't allow it in my game.

 

[Artoomis]

110 poll votes in 24 hours. Is that a forum record?

 

[Hypersmurf]

In the chapter on feats, feats have benefits, not effects.

Yup, but there are references to a feat's effect, so we know they can have them

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

Yup, but there are references to a feat's effect, so we know they can have them

-Hyp.

There is also at least one reference to a feat as an effect, right? Maybe, indeed, only one, but that should be enough.

Keen Edge
...Multiple effects that increase a weapon’s threat range (such as the keen edge spell and the Improved Critical feat) don’t stack. You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as a claw.

Spiritual Weapon... Your feats or combat actions do not affect the weapon

 

[Hypersmurf]

There is also at least one reference to a feat as an effect, right?

Improved Spell Resistance? AFAIK, that's only in the ELH, and you specifically restricted this thread to considering only Core plus errata...

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

There is also at least one reference to a feat as an effect, right? Maybe, indeed, only one, but that should be enough.

Sloppy writing for one feat out of literally several hundred feats is hardly enough to qualify as rule defining.


I noticed you ignored my Craft Effect to make a Monk's Unarmed Attack masterwork example. If feats can be used as effects, cannot skills be used as effects?

 

[Cedric]

Sloppy writing for one feat out of literally several hundred feats is hardly enough to qualify as rule defining.


I noticed you ignored my Craft Effect to make a Monk's Unarmed Attack masterwork example. If feats can be used as effects, cannot skills be used as effects?

Actually, I was going to reply to that, but was busy at work. I have a few minutes now, so I'll sound off on it.

And my thoughts...sure, I'd allow it. In fact, I think it might eliminate a lot of the aspects of a monk that make many people consider them to be 'underpowered'. Though, I would require "Craft Natural Weapon" to be taken as the skill, instead of Weaponsmithing. But that's largely because I think it is just a different skill.

Perhaps time spent toughing fists, building callous, working on grip and positioning...but as it relates to one natural weapon (fist in my example)...basically something that goes somewhat beyond the scope of the normal training a monk does.

And of course, the monk would have to be present for the entirety of the crafting process. (I would also recommend against certain abilities, like Flaming Burst, etc).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Perhaps time spent toughing fists, building callous, working on grip and positioning...but as it relates to one natural weapon (fist in my example)...basically something that goes somewhat beyond the scope of the normal training a monk does.

I recently watched a broadcast on one of the cable science channels in which (among other things) the researchers were using the same kind of equipment used to measure forces in auto impact testing to measure the power in martial arts strikes. They pointed out the "hard body" training creates microfractures in the bones, which then heal, heavier than before. Repeat the process, and eventually the Martial Artists' bones can endure forces that would normally shatter them...as was evidenced in their force tests.

They recorded the force required to break a typical human skull...and a martial artist did a break with his head that registered 3x that amount at the point of impact.

And of course, the monk would have to be present for the entirety of the crafting process. (I would also recommend against certain abilities, like Flaming Burst, etc).

Why? The flame doesn't hurt the wielder, after all.

Or are you talking about the process itself?

 

[Artoomis]

Improved Spell Resistance? AFAIK, that's only in the ELH, and you specifically restricted this thread to considering only Core plus errata...

-Hyp.

Form the PHB spells:

Keen Edge
...Multiple effects that increase a weapon’s threat range (such as the keen edge spell and the Improved Critical feat) don’t stack. You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as a claw.

Spiritual Weapon... Your feats or combat actions do not affect the weapon

That's two instances. The second is a little shakey, but the first is solid. If a feat is an effect for Keen Edge, who's to say it is not one for the Monk?

 

[Hypersmurf]

The second is a little shakey...

I'm not quite sure how it's at all relevant... let alone 'shakey'...

... but the first is solid. If a feat is an effect for Keen Edge, who's to say it is not one for the Monk?

I'd assume that it's a shorthand for "the effect bestowed by the Keen Edge spell and the effect bestowed by the Improved Critical feat", much as someone might write "multiple enhancement bonuses (such as the Magic Weapon and Shillelagh spells) do not stack" as a shorthand for "such as the enhancement bonus bestowed by the Magic Weapon spell and the enhancement bonus bestowed by the Shillelagh spell".

-Hyp.