Try it in your game? Remove caster level.

[Dandu]

Well, the second sentence is technically true. I mean, you don't need to give your wizard a good constitution score, or have a fighter with high strength, or a cleric with wisdom in the double digits...

 

[Visigani]

Given that they have class features that run off of Dex and no armor, I would question the wisdom of making a monk with 10 Dex.

CR 20 monster fortitude saves:
Black Dragon, Wyrm: +26
Brass Dragon, Ancient: +23
Bronze Dragon, Very old: +23
Copper Dragon, Very old: +23
Demon, Balor +22 - note that this monster has Unholy Aura at will, which will grant it - among other things - a +4 to saves when activated.
Devil, Pit Fiend +19 - note that this monster has Unholy Aura at will, which will grant it - among other things - a +4 to saves when activated.
Red Dragon, Old: +23
Silver Dragon, Old +23
Tarrasque: +38

What is your Stunning Fist going to work on?

Alight, why don't you make a monk to show us all. Level 12 character, 28 point buy, and WBL according to the guidelines in the DMG.

And this is why it's difficult to have a discussion with you. You choose some of the most powerful creatures in the game and then say "what, huh, your power ain't gunna work now derp derp?".

A huge chunk of the wizards repertoire is entirely useless against the Tarrasque, including the iconic magic missile as well as cone of cold, lightning bolt, etc etc. Does this somehow make spells useless? No.

Why can you not wrap your head around this extremely simple concept?


You ask what the monk does so well and I've told you again and again he consumes fewer resources than other party members. That's how he plays a support character, that is his virtue. Just as a fighter having a high AC reduces the amount of healing a cleric has to do, the monk having the various defenses he has reduces the amount of restoration, healing, etc etc spells he must consume. For as much as you're on this forum you'd think you'd be acquainted with the basics rather than just some crap you ripped off/regurgitated of some guidebook somewhere and adopted as your dogma.

A monk can fight, scout, play as the party face and is significantly harder to kill than the next guy who has the ability to fill all those roles (the rogue/bard), and is about the most mobile character on the playing field. He can do all these things and then you turn around herp a derp and ask why he can't stand toe to toe like a fighter when a fighter can't touch his other capabilities.

I mean if you want to have an actual conversation about this, let's have it... but save the ridiculously short sighted assumptions about the class.

 

[Dandu]

And this is why it's difficult to have a discussion with you. You choose some of the most powerful creatures in the game and then say "what, huh, your power ain't gunna work now derp derp?".

I apologize, but it was my understanding that the game of Dungeons & Dragons was played with a party that goes up against encounters of a CR determined by the party level and composition.

And I'm not cherrypicking, dear. That was the complete list of CR 20 monsters in core.

A huge chunk of the wizards repertoire is entirely useless against the Tarrasque, including the iconic magic missile as well as cone of cold, lightning bolt, etc etc. Does this somehow make spells useless? No.

You are correct, sir. That is because, despite some spells being ineffective, there are spells that would work against the Tarrasque.

Why can you not wrap your head around this extremely simple concept?

Perhaps because, while there are ways for a wizard to use his class abilities against the Tarrasque, the same could not be said for the monk?

Again, feel free to prove me wrong. Go on, tell me what the monk does to contribute against enemies.

You ask what the monk does so well and I've told you again and again he consumes fewer resources than other party members.

And how does the most gear and buff dependent class in the game do this?

That's how he plays a support character, that is his virtue. Just as a fighter having a high AC reduces the amount of healing a cleric has to do, the monk having the various defenses he has reduces the among of restoration, healing, etc etc spells he must cast.

He also does not do anything useful; in combat, the fighter is dealing out DPS. This justifies his position in the party, because he is doign something useful.

Not consuming many resources is not useful. If that were the case, the party would spend less resources if the monk were not there in the first place. And now an empty slot is now better than the most balanced class in the game.

For as much as you're on this forum you'd think you'd be acquainted with the basics rather than just some crap you ripped off/regurgitated of some guidebook somewhere and adopted as your dogma.

I like to use not only all the brains that I have, but all that I can borrow.

A monk can fight, scout, play as the party face and is significantly harder to kill than the next guy who has the ability to fill all those roles (the rogue/bard), and is about the most mobile character on the playing field. He can do all these things and then you turn around herp a derp and ask why he can't stand toe to toe like a fighter when a fighter can't touch his other capabilities.

I would love to see a build that can do all of those things. In my experience, from seeing many monk builds in action, monks can fight poorly, set off traps while scouting, put their foot in their mouths, and flutter about uselessly while enemies ignore him in favor of actual threats.

I mean if you want to have an actual conversation about this, let's have it... but save the ridiculously short sighted assumptions about the class.

If you desire an actual conversation, perhaps you would care to back up your statements with evidence rather than by flailing about verbally?

By all means, let us engage in enlightened discourse. Now is the time for us to set aside our prejudices and assumptions about the class in order to examine it with eyes anew.

Would you kindly build a monk of level 12, with 28 point buy, using the standard Wealth By Level guidelines? I want to see the monk that "can fight, scout, play as the party face and is significantly harder to kill than the next guy who has the ability to fill all those roles."

Herp-a-derp.

 

[airwalkrr]

This is an interesting proposal for a house rule, but it would not work with the monsters as they currently exist in the game. Many of them have very high hit points based on the assumption that casters will be capable of leveling them with a properly placed spell. A fireball spell cast by a 10th level wizard under core rules has better than even odds of knocking out several ogres whereas a caster level 5 fireball would have to be a very lucky one indeed.

I can see how this might work though. It would require a lot of playtesting and adjustments to monsters to balance the game though. But to be honest, a DM who is clever about forcing the players to manage resources rather than blow them is a much more effective means of balancing spellcasters with other classes.

 

[Dandu]

I am inclined to agree with your assessment of the situation and recommended means of alleviating the observed disparity visa-vi a more discerning application of the current paradigm.

 

[Hassassin]

I apologize, but it was my understanding that the game of Dungeons & Dragons was played with a party that goes up against encounters of a CR determined by the party level and composition.

Even by the book, a level 20 party will also have EL 16-19 and EL 21-24 challenges. Many of those will be composed of multiple lower CR threats.

 

[Shin Okada]

Even by the book, a level 20 party will also have EL 16-19 and EL 21-24 challenges. Many of those will be composed of multiple lower CR threats.

Yep. But that is CR 20 in average.

When the example was a level 20th PC, using CR 20 monsters as comparison is a fare start IMHO. Sure, CR 20 monsters are the strongest kind of critters in the core rules. But so as 20th-level PCs.

And in this case, we are talking about usefulness of an ability which has daily limit of usage (Stunning Fist). If so, shouldn't we assume that those abilities are better used against challenging threats instead of cannon fodders?

 

[Dandu]

CR 16 encounters:
Angel, Planetar - +14 fort save. Can buff its fort save up to +20 at least by using its ability to cast as a 17th level cleric. Intersting note: an encounter of multiple Planetars opens up the possiblity of many Gate spells being cast. Or, at least, a lot of Summon Monster X spells.
Archon, Hound Hero - +18 fort save.
Devil, Horned (Cornugon) - +16 fort save. Note: a large creature with a reach weapon. Also, each hit produces a cursed bleeding wound and requires a DC 27 fort save vs stunning for 1d4 rounds.
Golem, Greater Stone - Immune to stunning.
Nightshade, Nightwalker - Immune to stunning.
Various Dragons - they're dragons.

 

[Hassassin]

Ok, so at level 12, I am going to take 88K gp and buy equipment for a level 12 fighter. Let's say his starting base stats are STR 16, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 10, and CHA 8. This is, I believe, 28 point buy. At level 12, this will be STR 19, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 10, and CHA 8.

AC boosting items:
1. +2 Full Plate. +10 AC, 5,650 gp.
2. +1 Animated Heavy Steel Shield. +3 AC, 9,170 gp
3. +2 Ring of Protection. +2 AC, 8,000 gp.
4. Dusty Rose Ioun Stone. +1 AC, 5,000 gp.
5. Boots of Speed. +1 AC when activated, 12,000 gp.

AC: 29, 30 when using Boots of Speed.
Touch: 13, 14 when using Boots of Speed.
Flatfooted: 28

Other equipment:
+2 Spiked Chain, 8,325 gp.
Amulet of Health +4, 16,000 gp.
Gauntlets of Strength +4, 16,000 gp.
Cloak of Resistance +3, 9,000 gp.

Leftover gold: 849 gp.

For the fun of it I'll try:

28 point buy: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
At level 12: Str 14, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8

I'm going to use only ~ the gold you used on AC and ability items and ignore the boots. (I'm not sure which direction I'd take this monk - I've never played one.)

Bracers of Armor +4 (16k)
Ring of Protection +2 (8k)
Ioun Stone (5k)
Gloves of Dex +4 (16k)
Periapt of Wis +4 (16k)

AC 29 (equal)
Touch 25 (11 more)
F-F 23 (5 less)

The monk will have 37 hp less on average (13 from hit die, 24 from Con), but has 24 hp worth Wholeness of Body. He'll hopefully take less damage due to better saves + Improved Evasion and other class features.

I'm not saying the monk will be the fighter's equal as a tank, but I don't think he'll be quite as hopeless as you seem to suggest.

 

[Marflarius]

You ask what the monk does so well and I've told you again and again he consumes fewer resources than other party members. That's how he plays a support character, that is his virtue.

That good sir, is undoubtedly a vital role in any campaign. On to my 2 cents.

Assuming under the provisions of a 28 PB system and WBL according to a standard campaign, lets see. . .:

STR 16
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 8

This will net +3 ab, +3 ac, and an average of 6 hp a level, and of course, nothing for skills. This allows at best the Monk to have (by level 12) 72 hp (give or take) and +5 ac total for dex/wis and 2 from monk lvl 10.

Now, with +4 enhancement bonuses to str/dex/wis, our stats become:

STR 20 (+3 more for level 12 makes 23)
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 18
CHA 8

This now nets us +5 ab, +9 total ac for monk and dex, since we can't wear 2 amulets and there are no other item slots that give bonuses to con that we aren't using already, we will go with a +4 cloak of resistance for +4 to saves.

Mage Armor bracers and +2 ROP. is an additional 6 points of ac, so we have +15 to ac from base 10 so 25 ac. . . Lets say we're fighting defensively so we can achieve a total of 32 ac from tumble bonus. . .

With level 12 monk bab and a +6 to strength, assuming we use our 3 stat bumps for strength to get to 23 strength, we can hit a +15/+10 attack bonus in melee, and we deal 2d6+6 damage, so average 12 points of damage a hit.

With +4 to saves and the modified stats from items, we can assume that we will hit a 14 fort a 13 reflex and a 14 will, I suppose that's decent for a 12th level character. . .

Feats will be dodge mobility spring attack weapon focus improved natural attack and ability focus: stunning fist, so assuming we're not fighting defensively, this means we can gain up to a 29 ac when provoking AoO's, Have a dc 22 stun fist, have 72 hp (give or take again) and a +16/+11 for melee attacks when not using flurry of blows. And we increase our 2d6 damage to 2d8+6 So average 14 pts of damage a hit.

This being said, we can assume that we should be able to pretty much make all saves we come up against for CR 12's, could possibly get in a few good hits for example against a mature adult white dragon, since we can bypass his DR because we're Monks, and can scratch the surface of a rogue/bards capabilities as support roles for the party. Since we've used the standard WBL here, we have not saved any resources because had we not spent this 88k, we would essentially be useless.

We have 87 skill points by level 12 and since we're human that helps. That means we can max hide move silent listen spot and tumble and we can put 3 ranks into knowledge religion since we're covering bards knowledge and 1 point into gather info 1 point into diplomacy and 1 point into perform w/e. Making those particular skills an effective 0 due to our -1 charisma modifier.