Trying to do a little class balance.

[JacktheRabbit]

One thing I have always felt is that the cleric class in 3E has become quite overpowered.

I think this actually started in 2E especially with the massive spell increase granted to clerics witht he various Forgotten Realm supplements. All of a sudden cleric spells were not that much weaker than wizard spells and in some areas actually became more potent.

Now with 3E you get the Domain spells which add even more to the power of the cleric.


By the same token I have never liked the thief running around with only a D6 for hitpoints. I felt that it didnt fit well with them that the average rogue or thief was not as tough as the cleric.


So as a game balance I have considered swapping the hitdice of cleric and thief. Clerics would become D6 and thief would become d8. I would not change the druid or bard since I feel a druid should be physically tougher than a cleric while a bard being more accustomed to comfort would not be as tough as the average thief.


How well would this work? Does it balance the cleric well without making the rogue too powerful?


Opinions?


BTW - In my opinion the only reason this has never been done is the sacred cow issue. Hitdice other than the temporary ranger change has never been done to a character class.

 

[Starman]

It's hard to say if the Rogue would become too powerful, but by bumping up his hit dice you are increasing his ability to stand toe-to-toe with someone in melee. The d6 makes the Rogue stand back a bit and either sneak up on an enemy or tumble through him or anything else that lets him avoid getting hit a lot. The d8 doesn't make him a tank, but it pushes him closer to acting like one.

As for the cleric, I've seen other house rules that lower its hit dice to a d6. Another somewhat common house rule I've seen (and one I use) is to remove the cleric's Heavy Armor Proficiency. Their ability to cast in armor is one of their biggest strengths and this reduces that somewhat.

Try it out if you want and if it doesn't work, change it.

Starman

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

One thing I have always felt is that the cleric class in 3E has become quite overpowered.

I think this actually started in 2E especially with the massive spell increase granted to clerics witht he various Forgotten Realm supplements. All of a sudden cleric spells were not that much weaker than wizard spells and in some areas actually became more potent.

Now with 3E you get the Domain spells which add even more to the power of the cleric.

I disagree this is the huge problem, but whatevah.

By the same token I have never liked the thief running around with only a D6 for hitpoints. I felt that it didnt fit well with them that the average rogue or thief was not as tough as the cleric.


So as a game balance I have considered swapping the hitdice of cleric and thief. Clerics would become D6 and thief would become d8. I would not change the druid or bard since I feel a druid should be physically tougher than a cleric while a bard being more accustomed to comfort would not be as tough as the average thief.


How well would this work? Does it balance the cleric well without making the rogue too powerful?


Opinions?

Well, this is good and bad. IMC I don't like to hidden nerf rogues by using lots of constructs and stuff like that, and their low hit points generally makes it difficult for them to overpower sneak attacks.

Boosting their hit points might force me to reconsider that; however, it might also mean rogues IMC aren't automatically named Kenny

 

[Lord Pendragon]

One thing I have always felt is that the cleric class in 3E has become quite overpowered.

I emphatically agree with the above, but not below,

I would not change the druid or bard since I feel a druid should be physically tougher than a cleric while a bard being more accustomed to comfort would not be as tough as the average thief.

Druids are every bit as powerful as clerics, if not moreso. So if the cleric deserves a cut in hp, so does the druid. As far as bards and rogues are concerned, my last bard was more accustomed to sleeping under hedges, and my last rogue preferred to sleep late under satin sheets, so I think that perhaps your vision of those classes is very specific to your characters and your games. For me, the bard should certainly get a boost if the rogue does.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I've been tinkering with the idea that you get hit points based on race. It works for monsters right? That's also how it works in Rolemaster, another level based game. I'd have to award bonus hit points to the fighter style classes though.

I agree with Monte in his decesion to give the Magister d6 hit points. d4 hit dice are just too low.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Hitpoints based on race sounds like it would completely and utterly screw the halfling.`

 

[S'mon]

One thing I do IMC to tone down the Cleric include making all Cleric & other Divine spellcasting spontaneous, from a limited spell list - spells known uses the spells/day table, without bonuses for high WIS. This makes a big difference - Clerics become less flexible, like Sorcerers, and they need to rely more on general-use spells and spend slots on vital stuff like 'raise dead'.

Clerics in 3.5 seem a bit less overpowered than in 3.0 anyway, though, due to nerfing of the Buff spells they no longer outshine Fighters in combat. I also use 3.0 rule for Domain spells (you get 1 per spell level, you don't get to pick between 2 domain spells/level every day as in 3.5).

I also let Wizards & Sorcerers cast the Cure spells - no one seems interested in taking these though, they'd rather have a Cleric Cohort.

 

[MichaelH]

I also use 3.0 rule for Domain spells (you get 1 per spell level, you don't get to pick between 2 domain spells/level every day as in 3.5).

I am not sure what you mean by this. The 3.0 and 3.5 Cleric both allow the character 2 Domains from which to choose his domain spells each day.

See the 3.0 PH, pages 30-31.

 

[Darklone]

I've been thinking about d6 for all full spellcasters, d8 for roguish and woodsy types (ranger, rogue, bard, monk) and d10/d12 for the rest.

Rogues sneak attack to once per three levels (+2d6 at level 4, +3d6 at level 7 etc) and TWF means no penalties to attack (since the only thing that makes it too strong is too much sneak attack).

Clerics get 4 skillpoints per level though and no heavy armour proficiency (and light shields).

 

[MichaelH]

I've been tinkering with the idea that you get hit points based on race. It works for monsters right? That's also how it works in Rolemaster, another level based game. I'd have to award bonus hit points to the fighter style classes though.

The Farscape RPG based HD on the race of the character with a modifier depending upon the class. They used d8, d10, and d12 for HD and -1, +1, and +3 for modifiers. If you have access to the book, this is on page 149.

Using this system for D&D could be done easily for the PH races, but might be more difficult for the other humanoids in the MM. Halflings and gnomes would use d8 HD. Elves, Half-Elves, Humans, and Dwarves would use d10 HD and Half-Orcs would use d12 HD. Wizards and Sorcerers would get the -1 modifier to their HD. Bards, Clerics, Druids, Monks, Rogues, and Rangers would get the +1 modifer and Paladins, Fighters, and Barbarians would get the +3 modifier.