Trying to do a little class balance.

[ARandomGod]

Hitpoints based on race sounds like it would completely and utterly screw the halfling.`

That would certainly fit the trend, especially in today's "Bigger is always better" DnD mentality.

I say, give them a d4 instead of a d8, BUT, to compensate give them 4/- damage reduction. To show how very small and evasive they are. They just don't take the damage in the first place. Can't hit 'em even with a solid hit sometimes!

 

[akchf]

I would have to agree that I think some classes are far better designed for 20 levels of play. I've always thought that with the special abilities that the barbarians and rogues get they were among the most powerful. I could see how the cleric could be thought over powering as well. I'm not sure about the monk and druid but I think they're fairly decent.

I look at the fighter and think that all the feats are nice, but you end up so tied down by a lack of skill points that it's far better to mutliclass with it. I also think the ranger and paladin are weaker once you get past 10th level in that the paladin stops gaining extra abilities, and the rangers stop getting useful ones after 12th or 13th. Also both classes have such narrow spellcasting abilities that they can be difficult to use effectively.
I made my own version of the ranger class because I thought they made some of the abilities like the hide in plain sight in natural settings a little too weak for the level you're getting it at, and saw the spells as too situational to be of a great deal of use. Also with the ranger I think the favored enemy is still too easily bypassed by the DM.

When you look at the prestige classes and the abilities of some of the classes at higher levels (above 10 it seems to me that Wizards doesn't know how to balance the classes very well), but that's just what I've seen with the groups I've played with.

 

[Merlion]

I think in 3.5 the Paladin and Ranger are good balance wise. Although there are especially with the ranger issues of how people invision them and wether it fits.

I think Monk and Bard are now fully viable.

Rogue is perhaps the best balanced class in the game.

I dont really know much about Barbarians

Druid is almost as powerful as the Cleric, but the limitations of Wildshape and there spell list keep them from being overpowered as the Cleric is.

Wizard and Sorcerer have a couple of issues. One is their shared spell list. They need to take back there position as the masters of magic, not just the masters of destruction (see my Additions to the Sor/Wiz class list thread). A nerf of Cleric domains would help this as well.

the Sorcerer needs a little more oomph...slightly more spells per day, no reliance on components and maybe some bonus feats of their own.

And then the Cleric is just silly but i've gone over that already.

 

[Merlion]

And as for Prestige classes, I think there fine on the whole, but several core classes have so little reason to advance in their class theres no reason not to go into a prestige class. Specially wizards, sorcerers and fighters.

the Fighter is hard beause if you give him much of anything else he ceases to be the Fighter.

but there need to be lots more combat feats, especially high level ones. And maybe give Fighters an extra attack bonus, much like with Monks and AC.

 

[Kabol]

See - the cleric class really has to be taken in context - Alone - yes, he is easly one the most powerful classes in the game. But, the fact that He is respocable for the groups health really nerfs him.
I have a lvl 11-12ish cleric ATM - hes a freak in melee. But, i only get one round to "myself" every 2 or 3. the rest I have to be Healing the tank, Buffing here and there. It really takes them down a notch or two in power. That is really somethin people need to look at - Try playing the class, and it becomes very apperant how powerful you COULD be if people would jsut stop getign hit! Grrr >< haha

 

[Merlion]

Kabol: Healing in combat is generally a deeply ineffecient way to do things. A Cleric and his party are generally better off for the Cleric to enter combat with one of his super buffs, or use offensive spells. Especially from 7th level on.


Untill you get Heal, any in combat healing you do is mostly just going to be trading actions with the attacker, with no net gain, whereas if you as the Cleric also attacked the enemy in one way or another, he'd probably end up dead before you really had to worry about it.


Besides which, Clerics have enough spell slots to do some healing, and still do most of their other absurd stuff.

 

[Afrodyte]

sorry for length

Depending on the nature of the campaign, divine casters may need a slight adjustment or a major overhaul. Personally, I'm generally inclined toward the latter, given how the idea of a cleric does not mesh with the mechanics supporting it. Here are a few things I'd likely do:

1. Reduce the basic combat abilities of divine casters. Like primary arcane casters, divine casters would get a poor BAB, similar saves (Will good, Fortitude and Reflex poor), no armor or shield proficiencies, and only simple weapon proficiencies to start with. Their HD would be d6. If the player wants more martial abilities, they can choose martial deities (or--gasp!--multiclass with a more frontline class like barbarian, fighter, or paladin).
2. Clerics have more limited spells known, determined by the deity's domains and their Wisdom score. Clerics automatically know the spells given by the deity's domains, and can cast them spontaneously. Anything extra is like a divine favor granted to the most promising of the deity's followers and is based on the Wisdom bonus. Clerics can have a number of extra known spells equal to their Wisdom bonus, with a maximum level equal to the maximum level of the spell the cleric can cast at any given level. These extra spells are chosen from the generic cleric spell list, and the alignment restrictions still apply. Enhancement bonuses due to magic items and spells do not alter how many of these extra spells you know, since they come from the gods, and they grant these benefits based solely on the worth of the individual, not the power of his or her gear.
3. Druidic armor and weapons proficiencies are altered to better fit the concept of a divine caster who reveres and protects nature. They may only use weapons that can double as tools. Sickles thrash wheat but can also fend off an attacker. Daggers cut hide and meat but can rupture a man's liver as well. A hatchet chops firewood as easily as limbs. Unless a particular weapon is forbidden to them, druids are proficient with all simple weapons, the handaxe, and the net. They avoid using items that are solely instruments of war or industry because they believe that industry, especially as enhanced through the war machine, upsets the balance of nature far too much. Druids are thus forbidden to use weapons specifically designed for war, such as swords, battle axes, polearms, and most exotic weapons. They are not proficient with any armor or shields, but the ones they do wear are generally made of organic materials or taken from those that no longer need it (ie, looted from corpses).
4. Druids must uphold vows to keep their powers (replaces the "any neutral" alignment requirement). If they break these vows, they may regain them by performing appropriate acts of atonement. This cannot be circumvented or short-cut by a spell, not even wish or miracle. The druidic vows are:

• Save a life to take a life. This vow prohibits killing for sport or material gain, for doing so violates the sanctity of life. Killing is permitted only in self-defense or to procure food. Of course, definitions vary on what self-defense means. Some druids see the destruction of budding cities as defending their own homes. And when it comes to feeding themselves, cannibalism is not unheard of. Even in these circumstances, steps must be taken to replace the loss of life, to maintain the balance of nature. This includes planting new trees to replace ones that have been cut down, protecting young animals until adulthood when a healthy animal has been slain, and giving the material profits of a party member to those who need it most. In the case of abominations like undead, this rule no longer applies. Most druids feel compelled to destroy these unnatural horrors as soon as possible.
• All things in nature live by virtue of their own strength, cunning, and skill; so must you. To the druids who live in rural or wild lands, urbanites seem disconnected from the process of life. Very seldom do they provide for their own needs. Farmers grow and harvest their food. Butchers slaughter the animals that provide their meat. Nurses tend to their sick. Smiths craft the armor and weapons that protect them. Tailors make their clothes. Morticians bury their dead. Some even have servants to do work they feel they can't be bothered with. Druids, on the other hand, prefer the independence and self-reliance that come from living with nature, not shirking labor simply for the sake of convenience. As much as possible, druids live by their own strength, skill, and luck, even (or rather, especially) if that means they have to learn new things to do so. This does not mean they refuse the help of other members in the party if it is needed, or that they do not help others who need it. Rather, it means that they don't do so simply because it is convienient.
• Take only what you need and leave the rest. Accumulating wealth and material goods for their own sake is antithetical to the druidic worldview. Nature provides all we need. Why ask or demand more? This is not to say druids are prohibited from making long-range plans, using accumulated wealth to a specific end that benefits nature. For example, a druid can adventure to earn enough money to purchase land, thus protecting it from those who would destroy it.
• Death is a part of life. It is the ultimate symbol of hubris to attemt to reverse death. Druids may not be resurrected or raised, nor will they directly contribute to raising or resurrecting a dead character. This does not mean that they do not protect and support their allies on what they see as a fool's errand, but they will not otherwise help in doing something so opposed to their values.

5. Instead of relying on the PHB deities for clerics, I'd do something else that allows for more flexibility and creativity. In lieu of using standard Greyhawk gods, players and DMs can create their own gods and assign the proper aspect(s). Instead of being actual deities, aspects are basically the concepts that a deity has dominion over. These are the alignments, domains, and favored weapons associated with each aspect I've made up so far:

• Death (N): Death, Destruction, Law/Chaos (choose one), Travel. Favored weapon: scythe
• Fate (N): Knowledge, Luck, Protection, Trickery. Favored weapon: none (though longsword can work)
• Justice (LN): Destruction, Knowledge, Law, Protection. Favored weapon: longsword
• Life (NG): Animal, Healing, Plant, Sun, Water. Favored weapon: none (though quarterstaff can work)
• Love (CG): Good, Knowledge, Luck, Protection. Favored weapon: (composite) shortbow
• Moon (N): Healing, Magic, Trickery, Water. Favored weapon: sickle
• Mountain (LG): Earth, Law, Protection, Strength. Favored weapon: war hammer (or pick)
• Nature (N): Animal, Death/Destruction/Healing, Plant, Sun, Water. Favored weapon: quarterstaff
• Peace (NG): Good, Healing, Luck, Protection. Favored weapon: none
• Sea (CN): Air, Luck, Travel, Water. Favored weapon: trident
• Storm (CN): Air, Chaos, Destruction, Strength. Favored weapon: flail
• Sun (LG): Fire, Healing, Sun. Favored weapon: mace (or morningstar)
• Torment (NE): Death, Destruction, Evil. Favored weapon: scourge
• Trickery (CN): Chaos, Luck, Magic, Travel, Trickery. Favored weapon: rapier (or whip)
• Valor (LG): Law, Protection, Strength, War. Favored weapon: any sword, axe, or polearm (choose one)
• War (CE): Chaos, Death, Destruction, Strength, War. Favored weapon: any sword, axe, or polearm (choose one)
• Wisdom (NG): Good, Healing, Knowledge, Magic. Favored weapon:

6. Spread abilities out across levels, granting boons particularly at some of the levels where you gain neither bonus feats nor ability increases. The following levels are critical in this regard: 2nd, 5th, 7th, 10th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 17th, and 19th. I'm tempted to allow the class abilities be one, some, or all of the following: additional domain boons, bonus domain (from domains appropriate to the deity), or a bonus feat chosen from a limited list (Combat Casting, Diligent, Iron Will, item creation feats, Leadership, metamagic feats, Negotiator, Persuasive, Self-Sufficient, Spell Penetration (Greater Spell Penetration), or Weapon Focus (deity's favored weapon) to name some).
7. Remove turn/rebuke undead from the generic cleric's abilities and make them domain abilities for clerics with the Good/Healing (for turn) or Death/Evil (for rebuke). A more potent ability would be able to turn or rebuke infernals and/or similar outsiders, but that's for higher (or even epic) levels.

 

[Majere]

Kabol: Healing in combat is generally a deeply ineffecient way to do things. A Cleric and his party are generally better off for the Cleric to enter combat with one of his super buffs, or use offensive spells. Especially from 7th level on.

Ok this is exactly the sort of selfish (yes I do mean selfish) attitude taken by certain cleric players that gives clerics a bad name. Clerics are there to heal the party, people who say otherwise shouldnt play clerics, they should play fighters or paladins. Playing a cleric who doesnt heal people is like playing a rogue who doesnt take any ranks in search,open lock, disable device. You missed the whole goddamn point of the class.

I will concede yes that a cleric can buff himself to the s and I say: So what ?
Im my midlevel campeign no a single one of our combatts has gone past 6 rounds, by the time your buffs are up the fricking combat would be over !!
Hell by round 2 the fighter would be literally screming at you to heal him, and if you said "Nah you can die, I wanna buff so I can hit him"- Well why the hell are you in an adventuring GROUP.

Permanent spell is brokne, just dont allow it. If doesnt make clerics broken it makes the feat broken. Give mages permanent spell and then mages would be "broken" too.

People also forget that.
1) healing is a touch range spell.
2) Monsters have reach.
3) Therefore the cleric needs good ac and good hp to be able to heal party members. This s why clerics get heavy armor and d8.

Im my high level game the party outhealed the damage being done by a great wyrm.
In the mid level game we have only lost 3 people in combat and they were to undead stat drain not hp damage.
A good party can keep people alive with using the top healing spells available.

I will finish with the same line I always do on threads about cleircs.
Cast the buffs on the fighter for god sake, they will be 20 times more effective if you buff and then heal the tank.

Majere

 

[Merlion]

Ok this is exactly the sort of selfish (yes I do mean selfish) attitude taken by certain cleric players that gives clerics a bad name.

I dont think you understand. It is more beneficial to the party nine times out of ten, for them to use their other powers in battle, rather than to heal.
Nothing to do with selfishness. Just flaws in the system.

Clerics are there to heal the party

Why? What if he's a Cleric of war or travel? whats that got to do with healing?

This is part of the thematic problems with the Cleric. They are trying to fill 2 thematic roles at once. the "Priest" who's abilities and role should depend entirely on their religion, and the "battle healer".

Personally, I think those roles should be 2 seperate classes.

Cast the buffs on the fighter for god sake, they will be 20 times more effective if you buff and then heal the tank.

This is entirely inacurate mechanically. The Cleric with one or two out of Divine Power, Divine Favor, Righteous Might is overall more effective than a melee class in melee and can still cast spells.

Unfortunitly the way DnD is set up, support and defense are often extremely sub optimal. The best option is usualy everyone using the greatest offensive means at their disposal...and the Clerics are considerable.

 

[ARandomGod]

Playing a cleric who doesnt heal people is like playing a rogue who doesnt take any ranks in search,open lock, disable device. You missed the whole goddamn point of the class.

I disagree.
Of course, I've also played rogues with no ranks in open lock or disable device. I don't see that as the point of the class at all. Some rogues just don't try to open locked doors, and choose to deal with traps in other ways.