Trying to house rule the psion (more powers)

[SylverFlame]

Okay, here's the thing. I always felt the psion got REALLY ripped-off when it comes to powers. As such, I wrote this up to see if I could balance things. Basically, what it says below is the plan, but I'm thinking of reducing power points that a psion has and giving them some extra feats like the wizard gets meta-magic feats at certain levels. I have a feeling this is unbalanced, but here goes...


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There is no limit to the powers that can be known by a psion, however, the number of powers listed in the psion class description is the number of latent powers the psionic character can access (i.e. The number of powers the character receives without using a method below when they gain a level). Any powers after these latent abilities must be had by alternate methods. These methods include, but are not limited to:

- Learning powers from Encoded Stones (as in psion class description).

- Psychic Chirurgery (as descriped in power description).

- A Wish spell can be used to grant a number of powers that the total levels do not exceeding 1d10 – 1 (treat a roll of 0 as a 1). 0th-level powers have a cost of ½.

- Repository Stones. These stones, created through the Encode Stone feat, with slight cost changes, function as a spell-book for a psionic character. The cost for creating a Repository Stone depends on the powers placed into it. A stone (typically a gem) can hold a number of levels equal to 1 level/ 50gp value of the gem. This means a gem valued at 500gp can hold a total of ten levels in any combination. Treat 0th-level spells as costing 25gp, which means you could Encode two 0th-level powers for the cost of a 1st-level power. No Xp cost is incurred in creating a Repository Stone, though a stored power must be know by the creator.
-------- To learn a power stored in the stone, a character must meditate with the stone, allowing the stone to awaken their mind to the power.
-------- Physically speaking, a Repository Stone looks much like its mundane counterparts. The stone, however, seems to catch the light differently, and is brighter and more appealing than a mundane stone of the same kind and type. Upon touching a Repository Stone, a psionic character will know exactly what they hold, but a Psi-Craft check is required to determine the powers in the stone.

- Psionic or Magical Backlash. A character caught in a blast of power, say from a particularly powerful spell gone awry or a powerful item being destroyed, could have additional powers awakened. DM’s should be careful about using this option very often.

With the exception of Psychic Chirurgery, a DM should not allow a psychic warrior to expand beyond the number of powers they are limited to. The reason for this is that a Psychic Warrior is not as focused on their mental powers as a psion is.

Also, using any of these methods to learn a new power, does not allow a psion to learn a power of a higher level than they can manifest, nor a power whose required ability score is not met. For example, a 5th-level psion with 11 in Dexterity could not learn Danger Sense (a 3rd-level power) or any 2nd-level Psychoportation powers.
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So will this work, or do I have to do some MAJOR revisions?

 

[dvvega]

Have you looked at If Thoughts Could Kill? Published by Malhavoc Press.

It has a modified Psion progression, they get more powers and can select two other specialisations that use their main attribute.

So if you decided on MetaCreative (INT) and took PsychoMetabolism and PsychoKinetic you use INT for powers in those areas as well.

I've played with this version of the Psion and the original. Both work well.

 

[DreamChaser]

I have a psion in my current game. We started at 9th level and we're now around 23rd level. She has never had any problem with lack of powers. At times, she has enough to make the other characters feel a little obsolete (she did roll very well on her stats).

I think that after having seen them played, I think that the psion is not in need of more powers. I think they are in need of something requiring them to focus on their primary discipline more.

Just my thoughts.
DC

 

[steveroe]

The last campaign I played in had a sorcerer and a psion. The psion was less effective (therefore less fun to play) than the sorcerer. The difference was primarily due to less spells per day for the psion. The psion ran out spells several times. The sorcerer never ran out.

If you examine the spells per day and power point level progression tables you will see that a sorcerer and wizard can cast more spells per day than a psion.

For example, compare 5th level psion, sorcerer and wizard.
Use the power point conversion for the arcane spells to calculate an equivalent power point total.

A Psion (5) has 10 pp. and could manifest 4 Lvl-1 annd 2 Lvl-2 powers, with these permutations { (4,2),(1,3),(7,1),(10,0)}.
A sorcerer(5) has 18 points and could cast 6 Lvl-1, 4 Lvl-2 spells, with these permutatoins { (6,2),(7,1), (8,0)}.
A wizard(5) has 14 pp and could cast 3 lvl-1, 2 lvl-2, 1 lvl-3 spells with these permutations: { (3,2,1),(4,1,1),(5,0,1),(5,1,0), ...}.

At higher levels the disparity increases.
psion (15) has 100 pp.
sorcerer (15) has 268 points, and
wizard (15) has 174.

A sorcerer with spontaneous casting ability has over twice as many points to work with per day. But consider that a psions have an extra measure of flexibility because they can combine their "first level slots" (as it were) to cast a higher level spell. However, this is not an advantage because if we use all points to cast the highest level power they may only match the number of highest level spells a sorcerer can cast. Plus the sorcerer still has their remaining lower level slots.

For example, at 7th level:
psion lvl 7 { (0, 0, 4), (4, 2, 2), (1,3,2) ...}
sorcerer lvl 7 { (6,6,4) ...}
The psion could manifest 4 3rd-level powers. The sorcerer could cast 4 3rd-level spells, PLUS 6 second-level and 6 first-level spells.

So, if I were to attempt to rebalance the psion class with house rules I would first add power points to close the psion sorcerer/wizard power gaps.

-steve

 

[SylverFlame]

I'll have to check out If Thoughts Could kill, that may just fix my troubles.

Steveroe, I was wondering how you'd do pp's for the other magic classes (divine and arcane). Would you go with the psion as the base (that is, balance the other classes against it) or just start from scratch?

Also, I really don't have a problem with the psion's powers/day, more so it's with the total number of powers they know. I was hoping for balance ideas because a psion with the same number of points as the book lists and say ten 1st-level powers (as opposed to the present 5 or 6) is a much more versatile and powerful character.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Okay, I've played both a Sorcerer and a Psion. I prefer the Psion by far.

The thing is, the Psion's advantages are not very clear, and the class suffers unless you play to those strengths. The advantages of Psions:

> No problems casting in armor
> (level+3) free Talents per day. At level 5, that's like 8 extra power points per day, which nicely balances the difference between Sorcerers and Psions. At high levels the Sorcerers pull away, of course.
> Better class skill lists, with different lists for each discipline. Sorcerers have high CHA but no CHA-based class skills.
> 4+INT skill points instead of 2+INT
> You can use the "better" stats, like STR/DEX/CON to cast.
> Many spells are one level lower for Psions, and/or are stronger. This is especially true of the telepathy and divination spells.
> Psions have equivalents of both arcane and divine spells. They have a little healing ability (more, if you use the Sangehirn stuff from the Mind's Eye), and some divinations that were previously Cleric-only.
> Psions don't have to mess around with material components. I'm not just talking about the cheap stuff. Forcecage is a good spell but is very expensive, while Mass Cocoon (its psionic counterpart) is incredible. Identify without the 100gp cost is MUCH better. And so on.
> Psions don't have verbal/somatic components, so Hold Person and Silence don't stop them from casting
> No casting-time penalty for metapsionics.
> They can use all those cool Psionic Feats, like Speed of Thought.
> Psionic attack modes. These get a lot of bad press, but it's something.

On the other hand, Psions suck at raw offensive damage. They're very vulnerable to psychic attack modes. The randomness of the d20-Save-DC thing tends to work against you more often than not (which is why my Psion sticks more to defense and utility). You can't just raise one stat to be a good caster; you need to keep several up, which hurts you once you get to high-level powers.

The biggest downside of Psions, in my experience, is that they have no splatbook. There are tons of sources for new spells and arcane PrCs, but psionics got shafted here.
However, the Mind's Eye (WotC website) nicely compensates for this. If you include all the stuff there (or even MOST of the stuff there), it balances well against things like Tome & Blood. (Just remember that the Shadow Mind and Arch-Psion are Forgotten Realms PrCs)
Coincidentally, they compiled all the Mind's Eye articles into one .pdf file you can download. I highly recommend it.

 

[Staffan]

Okay, I've played both a Sorcerer and a Psion. I prefer the Psion by far.

The thing is, the Psion's advantages are not very clear, and the class suffers unless you play to those strengths. The advantages of Psions:

> No problems casting in armor
> (level+3) free Talents per day. At level 5, that's like 8 extra power points per day, which nicely balances the difference between Sorcerers and Psions. At high levels the Sorcerers pull away, of course.

Eh... sorcerers get cantrips too, so you'd have to subtract the sorcerer's 0-level spells per day to compensate. The psion has a small edge in this particular area, but it's a very small one.

> Better class skill lists, with different lists for each discipline. Sorcerers have high CHA but no CHA-based class skills.
> 4+INT skill points instead of 2+INT

Granted

> You can use the "better" stats, like STR/DEX/CON to cast.

But you need to keep *all* your stats high in order to get access to high-level spells. The sorcerer only needs to boost Charisma.

> Many spells are one level lower for Psions, and/or are stronger. This is especially true of the telepathy and divination spells.

Compared to a sorcerer, that is an advantage. It's a smaller advantage compared to wizards, since wizards get higher spell levels a level sooner. So, sure, suggestion is 2nd level for a psion and 3rd for a wizard, but the wizard only has to wait one more class level for it. There are also many psionic equivalents of spells that are significantly weaker than the spell: compare Emulate Power to Limited Wish, for example. Bothare 7th level effects that cost 300 XP to use, and can mimic the same type of effects (EP mimics psionic powers, LW mimics wizard spells) up to 6th level. However, LW can also mimic cleric spells (although with a lower level limit) and do a whole lot of other, flexible stuff. Emulate Power can just copy psionic powers, period.

> Psions have equivalents of both arcane and divine spells. They have a little healing ability (more, if you use the Sangehirn stuff from the Mind's Eye), and some divinations that were previously Cleric-only.
> Psions don't have to mess around with material components. I'm not just talking about the cheap stuff. Forcecage is a good spell but is very expensive, while Mass Cocoon (its psionic counterpart) is incredible. Identify without the 100gp cost is MUCH better. And so on.

Lack of components is a biggie, I'll grant you.

> Psions don't have verbal/somatic components, so Hold Person and Silence don't stop them from casting
> No casting-time penalty for metapsionics.

It's not like the casting time penalty is all that big to begin with. It just costs you your move-equivalent action (which is not the same as a spell with a one-round casting time - though let's not get into that debate. I'm willing to agree that it can be interpreted either way).

> They can use all those cool Psionic Feats, like Speed of Thought.

But they don't get any bonus feats to make proper use of them.

> Psionic attack modes. These get a lot of bad press, but it's something.

No, it's not. Psionic combat is an overall disadvantage for the psion.

On the other hand, Psions suck at raw offensive damage. They're very vulnerable to psychic attack modes. The randomness of the d20-Save-DC thing tends to work against you more often than not (which is why my Psion sticks more to defense and utility). You can't just raise one stat to be a good caster; you need to keep several up, which hurts you once you get to high-level powers.

The biggest downside of Psions, in my experience, is that they have no splatbook. There are tons of sources for new spells and arcane PrCs, but psionics got shafted here.

Malhavoc Press is coming out with a psionic splatbook/monster book some time in early 2003, written by Bruce Cordell.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Originally posted by Staffan

Eh... sorcerers get cantrips too, so you'd have to subtract the sorcerer's 0-level spells per day to compensate. The psion has a small edge in this particular area, but it's a very small one.

Not if you use the Feats over at Mind's Eye. They added five or six Feats that parallel the Cleric/Paladin ones that trade turning attempts for bonuses.

They also have a series of very cheap items that let them use one of these free activations to trigger a different Talent. Effectively, this gives them every Talent on the list at a cost of roughly 200gp per.

Even without that, several of the talents are Free Actions, unlike cantrips. The Psion's Talent list, in general, ends up being more useful than the Sorcerer's cantrips. At least in my experience.
Most of the time my Sorcerer would get to the end of the day with most of his cantrips still in place. My Psion ALWAYS runs out.

But you need to keep *all* your stats high in order to get access to high-level spells. The sorcerer only needs to boost Charisma.

No, you only need to keep a couple high. I'll give my character as example.

He's a Shaper (30-point buy), caster level 11. INT is 18, DEX 15, STR and CON 14. So, I can still do plenty of Metacreation magic, but I also have level 5 Psychoportation powers (Teleport, for example). The STR and CON let me cast Polymorph Self and Inertial Barrier, among other things.

I really only lost two disciplines, not much worse than a specialist Wizard. In a lot of ways, we should be comparing the Psion to a specialist Wizard, not to the Sorcerer.

As I increase in level this will get a bit more pronounced, until I can only take powers in 1 or 2 disciplines, but I'm not worried about it. It's a strange thing. With arcane magic, I always felt the need to get to the really high-end spells. With psionics, I'm more interested in the low-level stuff. I'm going to take a lot of PrCs that give things other than spell levels. I want to get level 7 spells for Mass Cocoon (that spell is simply amazing), but other than that there isn't much above spell level 5 that I'm desperate for.

But anyway, the REAL difference is that while I needed to keep CON high, I got all other sorts of benefits from that. That's part of why I dumped WIS and (to a lesser extent) CHA. I get double-duty out of the four stats I kept.

It's a smaller advantage compared to wizards, since wizards get higher spell levels a level sooner.

There's more to a spell's level than just when you get it; in many cases the fact that it takes up a lower-level spell slot helps a lot. For example, the two I really wanted were Clairvoyance and Fabricate. I later dropped Clair* from the character concept when I scrapped WIS. But Fabricate? I want to be able to cast it ten times a day. At only 7 pp, I can do that and still have some left over. A Sorcerer MIGHT be able to do that a few levels from now; a Wizard definitely couldn't.

There are also many psionic equivalents of spells that are significantly weaker than the spell

Granted. But, I'd say it's more often the other way. It's minor things, I didn't even notice half of them when I first started the Psion. Take, for example, Fabricate. When used on non-mineral matter, the psionic version gives 1 cubic yard (27 cubic feet) per level, while the arcane is just 10 cubic feet per level. Not a huge difference, but it's there.

Too many times though, you see a power with the same name as a spell, you read through it and say "okay, it works the same", not noticing the slight differences. Or maybe you see a power like Incarnate and say "it's just Permanency" without noticing other differences (like what it takes to dispel).

Lack of components is a biggie, I'll grant you.

It's huge. Okay, if you're in one of those campaigns where the DM assumes you have all the components handy, it's not so big to drop the material component. Although, the spells with costly components are a bigger deal.

But, the Verbal/Somatic thing is huge no matter how you cut it. The most common non-damage PHB ways a caster could stop another caster from firing don't work. Gag me, paralyze me, Silence me, whatever, I can STILL teleport out.

It's not like the casting time penalty is all that big to begin with. It just costs you your move-equivalent action (which is not the same as a spell with a one-round casting time - though let's not get into that debate.

No debate needed. The rules clearly state "full-round action", NOT "1 full round to cast".

The big difference comes with two things:
1> Quickened Powers. Sorcerers simply can't do this. Not only can Psions quicken with no problems, there are a better variety of powers that are already Free Actions.
2> Haste actions.
So, a hasted Psion can cast three metamagicked powers (one of which is quickened) and still do a move-equivalent action. A Sorcerer can do two normal spells and a move, or one normal and one metamagicked with no move.
(Now, the Psion will run low on power points quickly doing this, but a fight that ends faster means less damage taken)

Look at Energy Substitution. Both Sorcerers and Psions are so limited in their spells that they can't cover all the elements. Being able to swap elements around really helps, but the Sorcerer simply doesn't have enough time to do this for every damage spell.
(Of course, Psion damage spells bite, as noted earlier)

But they don't get any bonus feats to make proper use of them.

True, and any Psion in his right mind wouldn't bother with more than one of them. But the option is THERE. For example, Inertial Armor. It's an always-on Mage Armor, can't be dispelled. Wouldn't a low-level Sorcerer love something like that? Or Speed of Thought, for those campaigns where the DM loves using a battlemat.

No, it's not. Psionic combat is an overall disadvantage for the psion.

I disagree. When confronted with a psionic opponent who uses attack modes, sure, it's a vulnerability, although at least you have a fighting chance. But, how many psionic enemies do you run into? Most classed enemies won't be psionic, and psionic monsters should be a minority.
Against the vast majority of enemies I encounter, I have five extra ways of stunning them, all of which use my primary ability score and most of which are fairly cheap in power points. Not really much of a disadvantage.

 

[steveroe]

Steveroe, I was wondering how you'd do pp's for the other magic classes (divine and arcane). Would you go with the psion as the base (that is, balance the other classes against it) or just start from scratch?

One way is to convert the PHB spells per day charts to points. level-1 cost 1 point, level-2 costs 3 points, etc...
where cost = 2 x (lvl.) - 1.

Another method is in the Dusk campaign setting (a hosted site on enworld.) They have a point system for all spellcasting classes. It's pretty high powered as I recall. You might find some some good ideas there.

I can't decide if I like points or spell slots better. I feel like slots are easer to play since no math is required during a game, only checking off a box. I'm all about lower game overhead. Just give me tactics, strategy, and adventure. On the other hand, in a hack game, the additional flexibility of a point system might present interesting options. I guess it depends...

steve

 

[SylverFlame]

Cool Ideas

Hey, it's me. The guy who posted this thread in the first place.

I'm not harping on people for their opinions on whether the Psion or Sorcerer is better (I happen to like both as a matter of fact). Also, it's given me a TON of ideas for balancing out the Psion in gameplay terms.

However, I was hoping to get some ideas on whether or not to boost the total number of powers a Psion has access to at any given time.

I was wondering if it would unbalance the class if they had access to ALL of the powers at a given level, but only gained the listed powers when they level up. Let me explain with an example.

Hing (a level one psion) has two talents and a single discipline power. Before he reaches level two, he comes upon a Repository Stone (see my first post on this thread). This stone has two talents Hing wants to learn. Even though his power progression only allows him to have two talents at first level, he can learn these new powers because he has done so by an acceptable means.

In the above example Hing (level 1 psion) now has four talents and one discipline power. He can't cast any extra powers as his power points haven't increased and he only has four free talent manifestings (psion level +3), just like anyother level one psion. The real difference is he now has more options as to how to use the pp's and free manifests. Is this unbalancing?