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TSR3 missed deadlines, delays in Dungeon Crawl

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darjr

I crit!

In case they delete the post.

On 12/29/21 the Trademark Declaratory Judgement of Ownership was re-filed in the State of Washington, Case # 2:21-cv-01705. Please see the updates section and updated FAQ on the Indiegogo for more information.
 
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Having read that article, I don't really understand how he lost the plot in it. He talks about a number of changes that were made to make D&D less offensive, and even closes with "This company is interested in presenting material that promotes all of the qualities that parents want their children to have as those children grow up."

Dragon 1

Ok. I fail to see what the problem is with that article. I mean, it was written in 1990, so there's some choices of words we might consider slightly misogynist by today's standards, but the overall point of the article is to make the game less offensive. How is that a bad thing? They are a business, after all. And what's wrong with being less offensive? I for one don't want D&D, the face of the hobby, to be all edglordy and gross.

Also, his work on Deities and Demigods, Gamma World, and Greyhawk all are viewed fondly by a whole lot of gamers.

I'm not saying all his stuff is good (hardly anyone can say everything they did was good), but I don't think it's fair to say anything he does is trash. You don't have the career he has had and the respect of other big names in the industry like he has if all you do is trash. I might not agree with his personal views on a lot of things, but let's keep it real.
Fine, he wrote some stuff you think is great because you first interacted with it as a kid. Rose colored glasses? Nostalgia? Who knows? Doesn't change the fact that everything he's written in the last 20 years has been awful. Wasn't FFE one of the only companies forced by WoTC to pulp product because Jim violated pretty much every clause of the OGL? I'm even recalling an issue over the character/name Drawmij...
Have we actually seen Giantlands? I'd be willing to alter my opinion of his design skills if it turns out better than, say, The Green Races (not even the worst book published by Jim in the 3.0 era).

as for the essay in Dragon, that's the first time TSR bent the knee to outsiders simply to placate them instead of actually making the game better. It didn't stop the people who despised d&d from despising it anyway.
 

jdrakeh

Adventurer
Wasn't FFE one of the only companies forced by WoTC to pulp product because Jim violated pretty much every clause of the OGL?

No. That was FFE's spin on things in an effort to make WotC out as bad guys but the truth is they could've just covered up the d20 logo with an OGL sticker and been in compliance (a solution offered to other publishers in violation of the d20 STL, as well).
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
Fine, he wrote some stuff you think is great because you first interacted with it as a kid. Rose colored glasses? Nostalgia?

Or lots of people actually like it. People still playing it today.
Have we actually seen Giantlands? I'd be willing to alter my opinion of his design skills if it turns out better than, say, The Green Races (not even the worst book published by Jim in the 3.0 era).
Dinehart is running that show, and as far as I know, he's doing all the presentation and design himself. So while I am betting it's not the best product in the world, it wouldn't necessarily be on Jim Ward.
as for the essay in Dragon, that's the first time TSR bent the knee to outsiders simply to placate them instead of actually making the game better. It didn't stop the people who despised d&d from despising it anyway.

Ah, and here we have it. Making the game less offensive and more appealing to a greater audience =/= placating to outsiders. 🤷‍♂️


This also isn't true (we know, because much of the angst towards D&D stopped after 2e came out, as evidenced by Jim's own words about hate mail they were getting, and this:

A 2005 study highlighted that after 1992, it could not find "any letters, articles or editorials on the topic [D&D and Satanism/Suicide ties] except for several retrospective examinations of the history of gaming between 1997 and 2000 and an article dealing with prejudice against Christians from within the gaming community in [Dungeon, Dragon, Breakout, Critical miss and Places to go People to Be] in 1999

It seems to me you have a mighty axe to grind, and are letting your biases show.
 

Staffan

Legend
No. That was FFE's spin on things in an effort to make WotC out as bad guys but the truth is they could've just covered up the d20 logo with an OGL sticker and been in compliance (a solution offered to other publishers in violation of the d20 STL, as well).
As I recall it, FFE went a bit farther than many others in making mistakes when writing d20 stuff, that couldn't be fixed by sticking to the OGL and not using the d20 STL*. There were four books affected, one of which used monsters from Monster Manual II, and the other three mentioning various D&D gods and characters (including Drawmij).

* The OGL states, among other things, that you're not allowed to mention trademarks (including as an indication of compatibility) without a separate licensing agreement. The d20 System Trademark License (d20 STL) was that licensing agreement. Without getting into too much detail, the STL allowed you to use the d20 logo, the phrase "Requires the use of the Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook", and had a long list of stuff you weren't allowed to do, like change the meaning of many game terms, or include character generation rules.
 

It seems to me you have a mighty axe to grind, and are letting your biases show.
It wasn't obvious that i thought the guy sucked from my original comment?

Eta: Also, way to completely overlook the fact that all of his recent design work has been atrocious. But hey, he created something semi good in 1978 so, AMAZING!
 

the Jester

Legend
I'll point you towards the angry mothers from heck article in dragon
I mean, that seems to me like he was given a directive to write an article that justified the sanitizing of D&D in 2e, and he did his best with the assignment. And I'm glad he was willing to shoulder the responsibility for the no-demons decision.
plus his 3e company, Fast Forward Entertainment/Games. Everything he wrote for that edition of the game was trash.
Hmm. Not sure what they put out, and I don't think I own anything of theirs.
and metamorphosis alpha and gamma world weren't that great.
I think GW was great for the time. Conceptually, a post-apoc sci-fantasy game is a great idea.

I guess I just don't agree with you on Ward.
 

darjr

I crit!
I mean, that seems to me like he was given a directive to write an article that justified the sanitizing of D&D in 2e, and he did his best with the assignment. And I'm glad he was willing to shoulder the responsibility for the no-demons decision.

Hmm. Not sure what they put out, and I don't think I own anything of theirs.

I think GW was great for the time. Conceptually, a post-apoc sci-fantasy game is a great idea.

I guess I just don't agree with you on Ward.
Ward did make the decision from the accounts I know of. There are folks who really hate him for that. I think it was wrong but I don't have any animosity towards him for it. I take a dim view of folks who do.
 

darjr

I crit!
Here is Jim's own words. I think I recall Zeb Cook confirming the story.

Also I'll note I always thought it came after those six letters to sears and penny's but the story is more complicated than that.

 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
It wasn't obvious that i thought the guy sucked from my original comment?

Eta: Also, way to completely overlook the fact that all of his recent design work has been atrocious. But hey, he created something semi good in 1978 so, AMAZING!

Mod Note:
It is time to ask yourself what, exactly, you are trying to accomplish here. Ask yourself if what you are writing is actually going to accomplish that goal. Ask yourself if this snarky, superior, confrontational and condescending tone will gain you... anything, really.

I mean, unless what you want to do is to leave a big old steaming, smelly pile of negativity there, and let everyone see you standing in what you did. Because that's what is happening right now.

This thread's done. But next time, reconsider how you approach talking to folks.
 

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