Tucker's Kobolds -- really that tough a challenge?

The group Tucker's Kobolds was sprung on, was apparently very happy with the scenario. They eagerly took on these opponents. When the conflict took on the epic proportions it was to take on, they rose to the challenge.
What I remember about that article is that this, was something they looked back fondly on, were proud of having had the experience, wished to let the whole gaming world know of their epic struggle. (And, they did just that.)

The Young of today are not different. The Young will always be the Young.

But who set down a rule that we, the Older, cannot enjoy such challenges?
Who says we cannot rise to meet them?
Who says we are not up to epic encounters?

It is not I, who says these things.

I say that, in every Older person, a Young person remains, defiant and audacious and ready to come out and meet all of the challenges.
To his aid comes the knowledge, experience, and wisdom of the Older Person.

Edena_of_Neith
 

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I think most players are happy to face a strong challenge within the rules. Split-fire clearly breaks some iterations of the rules and would annoy me. Nor is it plausible IRL - you can fire a crossbow on the run, but you're not going to hit anything.
 

I just finished a long session for my adventurers - 6 players who are all fairly new to D&D - that was inspired by the Tucker's kobolds article (I'd been planning it for some time).

The group:
9th level Paladin (Gloria)
9th level Rogue/Swordsage (Lmax)
9th level Lizardfolk Swordsage (Salith)
8th level Sorcerer (Dorvet)
8th level Cleric (Gwilin)
8th level Bard (Melody)

They know the Kobolds are in contact with the Dragon Meerthrax who posses a widget they require for plot purposes, and had bargained for information from a nearby cabal of Gauths.

Entering the winding tunnels they passed a small concealed sentry post (which had provided a kobold with a nice view of them as they stood at the tunnel mouth preparing to go in) and walked past some open doors without paying too much attention. 20 ft further down the corridor and portcullis are slamming down behind them and in the middle of their marching order splitting the party, Lomax the Rogue spots the murder holes in the ceiling a fraction of a second before gallons of boiling water are poured down onto them.

Two of them move down the tunnel to secure it, while the rest start to try to lift the portcullis. A pair of kobold archers take pot shots to little effect and are taken down by a barrage of magic missiles and shadow garrotes, meanwhile long spears stab down at their heads, inflicting some irritating grazes and behind them a pair of Kobolds who have dropped down from the a hatch in the ceiling bar the doors shut to prevent them escaping. By this point the portcullis has been lifted and party members quickly duck under, another archer appears down the corridor and is charged by Lomax who falls into the pit trap the kobold was standing behind (:devil:). The party hastily move down the corridor and the stragglers are pelted with alchemist fire before they manage to get beyond the reach of the murder holes. Having fished Lomax out the Pit they proceed cautiously down the tunnel, into a large squarish chamber with double doors at the far side.

They nervously start to cross the room, calling out to the unseen Kobolds that they wish to talk to peacefully with their leaders - The Red Rock warren aren't having any of it though, and the 4 archers from each side open fire at them. Noticing that the arrow slits to the left are at floor level (compared to the elevated ones of the right) Melody charges over to attempt to skewer one of them, and instead manages to fall into the spiked pit directly in front of the archer. At this point they realised that neither of the Swordsages had bothered bringing ranged weapons, and an protracted fire fight broke out that was complicated by the other sentries arriving from behind, having slipped out the secret door into the tunnel.

That's a quick summary of the first couple of rooms, it made a great change from "I am lord Doom-Helmet, prepare to die.." and some uber bad guy getting taken down in one round - instead at least a hunded Kobolds have already fallen before them, and after being set on fire for the tenth time, I've never seen such bloodlust from my players!
 

(muses)

I honestly believe Tucker's Kobolds were meant as primarily humor, and taken that way by the group who sent in the article to Dragon.
Why?

Because poison was so very lethal in OD&D, 1E, and 2E, and if the DM had really wanted Tucker's Kobolds to kill the party, it would have been simple enough:

DM:

A squadron of kobolds with readied hand crossbows with poisoned bolts appears. They have Surprise.
They all fire. 10 incoming poisoned bolts. 5 hit the fighter. Roll five saves versus Poison.

(fighter fails 2 of them, dies.)

(initiative is rolled, group wins)

Group: (attacks the kobolds in hand to hand combat, begins killing them.)

DM: But now, 10 kobolds appear behind you, coming out of the Secret Entrance. They also have surprise, and they fire their posioned bolts from their hand crossbows.
3 bolts hit the wizard. Make three saves versus poison.

(the wizard dies, party wheels to face the Wolf Pack assault)

DM: The kobolds who were originally in front of you, those still alive (after being struck at by the party and many downed by bolts from their own side), strike with poisoned blades at the backs of those who turned, and at the front.
Those from behind draw poisoned blades and charge.
Multiple poisoned hits on most of the party. Make your saves.

(most of the party dies)

...

Real fun ... : (

Tucker's Kobolds were not played in this spirit. They were nasty, evil little critters, amusing, annoying, and downright mean, but hey, they were fun.
It is hard to imagine the above scenario as fun.

About the only way the above scenario could be fun is if ... the party was forewarned and threw a magical immunity to poison up first, or defensive spells that repelled bolts (Protection from Normal Arrows, 2nd level, in 2E), or were wearing really heavy armor and shields (+3 Plate Armor and +3 Shield, AC -6, AC 26 in 3E terms.)

In which case, it's still not funny. It's a deadly serious game of Kill or Be Killed, of the grimmest type.

DM: The kobolds appear.
One party member: My character cannot be surprised. She may roll for initiative.
DM: Roll!
Her: Improved Initiative and High Dex. I won the roll. Fireball!
DM: The kobolds are killed.
Party: We may now roll.
DM: Roll!
Party: Some roll high initiative.
DM: 10 more kobolds appear behind you.
Party fighter who won initiative: With initiative, I perform a Bull Rush. I try to knock as many down as possible. If I survive their attacks, I'll pull a Power Attack with Great Cleave.
Party cleric who won initiative: Ranged attack with Cause Serious Wounds, dumping Divine Metamagic into it to make it affect multiple opponents.

Etc. Very serious, there. Not humorous as Tucker's Kobolds were meant to be.
 

Old_school_overlord, my hat's off to you.

Reading your post above, it seems to me you captured very nicely the spirit and essence of Tucker's Kobolds.

More power to you and your group. And, more fun. : )
 

Because poison was so very lethal in OD&D, 1E, and 2E, and if the DM had really wanted Tucker's Kobolds to kill the party, it would have been simple enough:

DM:

A squadron of kobolds with readied hand crossbows with poisoned bolts appears. They have Surprise.
They all fire. 10 incoming poisoned bolts. 5 hit the fighter. Roll five saves versus Poison.

(fighter fails 2 of them, dies.)

That is an example of exactly why 'Tucker's Kobolds' don't ring true to me.

I've adventured as a 12th level character in 1st edition AD&D. A kobold with a hand crossbow even with surprise probably would need a 20 to hit you AC, and any M-U's would probably have stoneskin and/or protection from normal missiles up. So the expected result of 10 incoming poisoned bolts is zero hits. And a 12th level fighter with minimal magical protection would probably fail a saving throw versus poison only about 1 time in 5. So, each character would expect to be able to soak up about 100 poisoned crossbow bolts before dying (which for all but the most expensive insinuative poisons would take more than one round). Long before that would happen, clerics would be casting 'slow poison' on everyone (12 hour duration at this level), reviving newly dead characters to await treatment and protecting everyone else - and they'd do this and be ready for this precisely because they were used to poison being so deadly in 1st edition. They wouldn't have survived to 12th level if they weren't prepared to handle the whole party being poisoned by venomous hydras or teams of leveled drow commandos or what not.

Moreover, the chance of the kobolds achieving surprise wouldn't be that good anyway. Some waves would just die outright.

Tucker's Kobolds were not played in this spirit.

No, they certainly weren't. Because if they'd even been played in that fair of a spirit, the kobolds would have gone down hard and we'd never even have heard about them. 'Tucker's Kobolds' were played in a spirit far less fair, if perhaps somewhat less bloody minded, than your example, else they didn't have a chance of threatening a party of 12th level characters.

I agree with the point of Moore's editorial. Moore was trying to suggest that at higher levels, for the game to be challenging, the DM had to be creative. He was trying to suggest that high levels of challenge could be maintained through the upper levels by putting the characters at a tactical disadvantage. But his example is I think a very unfortunate one, because as someone whose played at that level I can't help but read the examples and think, 'That's only challenging because the DM was just cheating, fudging, and meta-gaming left and right, or else he's running a hyper low magic game where noone has magic armor, bags of holding, rings of protection, or anything, or else your whole party is a bunch of inexperienced novices that were just given high level characters rather than earning them, or some of all of that.'

Because in actual play, the M-U would be using telekinesis or gusts of wind to push those broom pushed piles of debris back over the kobolds, would be collapsing tunnels with transmute rock to mud and conjured earth elementals, would be killing off whole armies of kobolds with walls of fire, flash freezing rooms with cone of cold, knocking off dozens of them with sleep, frying narrow tunnels with lightning bolts, siccing invisible stalkers on the poor things, dropping cloud kills on them and so forth. One insect plague would keep the whole bunch of them busy for a very long time. Meanwhile, the fighters would need roughly a 2 to hit the archers through an arrow slit, while the kobolds would need roughly a 20 to hit. Kobolds would drop like flies and do virtually no damage.

So how did the DM make it work? Well, I suspect he 'cheated'. Those 'steel tipped bolts' conferred a special +3 bonus to hit the first time they were fired (afterwards they became blunt, naturally). The kobold archers probably had other special bonuses (they were all specialized in their weapon, they all had 16 DEX, they all gained a +2 tactical bonus to hit, or whatever). The kobolds archers could do a special 'split fire move' that violated the normal rules to avoid getting shot at. Every thing that the characters did was always interpretted in the worst possible light, failing to work or even back firing. Areas of effect were always assumed to catch the minimal number of kobolds. Everything the kobolds did was alwayer interpreted in the best possible light. Countermeasures to spells were sometimes invented on the fly. Kobold losses were always replaced at an exagerrated rate. Morale was never checked no matter how many scores or dozens of kobolds met Kurtulmak.

Meanwhile, the players are using tactics that suggest, among other things, that no one has a bag of holding - much less anything unusually good.

I'm not even sure we can trust Moore as a reliable narrator. For all I know he's exagerrating the situation to make a point, but I suspect based on what TSR actually published in 'Axe of the Dwarvish Lords' that he isn't. I'm glad that they had fun, but it reminds me more of when some of my fellow players waxed nostalgically on terrible DMs with pet DM 'player characters' that repeatedly tormented the party and was essentially immune to any counter attack. They had fun too, but they also probably wouldn't have chosen to go back to that environment.
 

That is an example of exactly why 'Tucker's Kobolds' don't ring true to me.

I've adventured as a 12th level character in 1st edition AD&D. A kobold with a hand crossbow even with surprise probably would need a 20 to hit you AC, and any M-U's would probably have stoneskin and/or protection from normal missiles up. So the expected result of 10 incoming poisoned bolts is zero hits. And a 12th level fighter with minimal magical protection would probably fail a saving throw versus poison only about 1 time in 5. So, each character would expect to be able to soak up about 100 poisoned crossbow bolts before dying (which for all but the most expensive insinuative poisons would take more than one round). Long before that would happen, clerics would be casting 'slow poison' on everyone (12 hour duration at this level), reviving newly dead characters to await treatment and protecting everyone else - and they'd do this and be ready for this precisely because they were used to poison being so deadly in 1st edition. They wouldn't have survived to 12th level if they weren't prepared to handle the whole party being poisoned by venomous hydras or teams of leveled drow commandos or what not.

Moreover, the chance of the kobolds achieving surprise wouldn't be that good anyway. Some waves would just die outright.



No, they certainly weren't. Because if they'd even been played in that fair of a spirit, the kobolds would have gone down hard and we'd never even have heard about them. 'Tucker's Kobolds' were played in a spirit far less fair, if perhaps somewhat less bloody minded, than your example, else they didn't have a chance of threatening a party of 12th level characters.

I agree with the point of Moore's editorial. Moore was trying to suggest that at higher levels, for the game to be challenging, the DM had to be creative. He was trying to suggest that high levels of challenge could be maintained through the upper levels by putting the characters at a tactical disadvantage. But his example is I think a very unfortunate one, because as someone whose played at that level I can't help but read the examples and think, 'That's only challenging because the DM was just cheating, fudging, and meta-gaming left and right, or else he's running a hyper low magic game where noone has magic armor, bags of holding, rings of protection, or anything, or else your whole party is a bunch of inexperienced novices that were just given high level characters rather than earning them, or some of all of that.'

Because in actual play, the M-U would be using telekinesis or gusts of wind to push those broom pushed piles of debris back over the kobolds, would be collapsing tunnels with transmute rock to mud and conjured earth elementals, would be killing off whole armies of kobolds with walls of fire, flash freezing rooms with cone of cold, knocking off dozens of them with sleep, frying narrow tunnels with lightning bolts, siccing invisible stalkers on the poor things, dropping cloud kills on them and so forth. One insect plague would keep the whole bunch of them busy for a very long time. Meanwhile, the fighters would need roughly a 2 to hit the archers through an arrow slit, while the kobolds would need roughly a 20 to hit. Kobolds would drop like flies and do virtually no damage.

So how did the DM make it work? Well, I suspect he 'cheated'. Those 'steel tipped bolts' conferred a special +3 bonus to hit the first time they were fired (afterwards they became blunt, naturally). The kobold archers probably had other special bonuses (they were all specialized in their weapon, they all had 16 DEX, they all gained a +2 tactical bonus to hit, or whatever). The kobolds archers could do a special 'split fire move' that violated the normal rules to avoid getting shot at. Every thing that the characters did was always interpretted in the worst possible light, failing to work or even back firing. Areas of effect were always assumed to catch the minimal number of kobolds. Everything the kobolds did was alwayer interpreted in the best possible light. Countermeasures to spells were sometimes invented on the fly. Kobold losses were always replaced at an exagerrated rate. Morale was never checked no matter how many scores or dozens of kobolds met Kurtulmak.

Meanwhile, the players are using tactics that suggest, among other things, that no one has a bag of holding - much less anything unusually good.

I'm not even sure we can trust Moore as a reliable narrator. For all I know he's exagerrating the situation to make a point, but I suspect based on what TSR actually published in 'Axe of the Dwarvish Lords' that he isn't. I'm glad that they had fun, but it reminds me more of when some of my fellow players waxed nostalgically on terrible DMs with pet DM 'player characters' that repeatedly tormented the party and was essentially immune to any counter attack. They had fun too, but they also probably wouldn't have chosen to go back to that environment.

Greetings!

Good points, my friend, good points! I understand your criticisms of the *Tucker's Kobolds* much clearer now after reading your extensive critique. You know I'm *Old School* too.;) I agree generally with your critique--though I have to say also, that it seems to me that if a DM is going to challenge high-level PC's, *and* avoid simply using the endless treadmill of ever-stronger monsters--that some good creativity and improvisation of lower-level creatures, or monsters long-thought of as more *mundane* may be quite useful, as well as entertaining, true? Tucker's Kobolds seems to be an example in that direction to inspire DM's with ideas on how to do so. (Though, admittedly, some of the mechanics and reasoning may be suspect, as you noted well);)

What do you think of the "Axe of the Dwarvish Lords", anyways? (I guess I never did pick that one up!:))

However, as an aside to the *Endless Supply* problem that you note with *Tucker's Kobolds*--as well as some of the tactics--what if the DM were to say, well, the Kobolds are allied with *Sauron* and since Sauron wants to gain their absolute loyalty, has impressed them with the abundant supply of all manner of tools, equipment, oil, poisons, and so on? In addition, perhaps some master Assassins and a few *Black Wizards*, etc, etc, spent some time in the past training the kobold tribe?:)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

And customizing monsters is just a thing that is expected from DMs. I regularly give ghouls the ability to effectively spider-climb at will, because the image of skittering emaciated critters on the walls and ceilings is a horrifying one. It's not in the core rules, but it's just something I do.

Just a note - the 4E designers seem to agree with you. Ghouls in 4E have a climb speed.
 
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12th level? A large party of 12th level characters?
I had forgotten that. Please pardon me, it has been a long time.

I am at a loss, is this is true. I appreciate the capacity of 1E and 2E 12th level characters and 12th level multi-classed characters, and 0 level kobolds would have a really difficult time with them.
Then again, in my system, 12th level characters are extremely capable people. I allow things other DMs do not allow. The kobolds would not have stood a chance.

DM: 10 kobolds leap out, hand crossbows ready, poisoned bolts about to fire.
Party: (is not surprised, wins initiative easily.)
Fighter: 4 shots (2/1 attacks, 2 arrows per attack), all hit (4 kobolds dead.)
Other Fighter: Charge (some kobolds fire at him, the bolts bounce off his armor) and attack with my twin long swords.
Barbarian: Axe, sword.
DM: All those kobolds are dead. 10 leap out from behind you, crossbows at the ready.
Elven Fighter/Wizard: Fireball, 12d6 (all kobolds killed.)
DM: 10 *more* kobolds leap out, crossbows ready.
Rogue: Greek fire, already lit, 2 bottles, then 2 more (all hit, all kobolds killed.)
DM: 10 *more* kobolds leap out.
Cleric: The Reflective Wall from the Tome of Magic (2E). (the kobolds shoot, and hit themselves. Most die.)
Wizard: Magic missile, 6 missiles, 2 to each survivor.
Druid: I summon an Earth Elemental to deal with the next 10 (it will, obviously, do more than that.)
DM: As the earth elemental is killing them, 10 *more* kobolds appear.
Psionicist, 1E: Psionic Blast. (catches them all in blast, kills them.)
DM: 10 *more* kobolds show up.
Monk (yes, the pathetic monk) I attack Hand to Hand with 3 attacks (3 kobolds instantly dead.)
Illusionist: Spectral Force. Carrion crawlers - I was bit and paralyzed, so can simulate the effect - appear and attack.
Cavalier: Was I supposed to do something? Oh yes. Cavalier sword attack with all bonuses.
Ranger: Attack with both swords, 4 attacks.

DM: Stop, stop, stop! They're dead.
The Party: (yawns) How boring. Hey Tucker, you lame brain, get out here and die like a kobold. Or do we simply chase you down?

Tucker: (from a great distance) You'll never catch me!
Cleric: Invisible Stalker, fetch Tucker.

(invisible stalker returns with Tucker.)

The Party: You were saying?
 

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