tumble and total defense

[the Jester]

SRD:

Seems to me that it is possible that they are treating the
5 ranks in tumble as a "synergy" bonus to "Total Defense"
and "Fight Defensively"...

>snip<

I can see how you could extrapolate the ability to tumble
during total defense. I will likely rule a bit more conservatively
in my game (sorry in advance, you rogues!).

~D

Hmm, I like the way you look at this one. It makes sense. But I think I sounded misleading- what I meant earlier wasn't that you had to roll to tumble to get the added bonus to a total defense action, but rather that you were pretty much tumbling around in order to get it, bobbing and weaving or whathaveyou in your 5x5 corner. So of course you could tumble as your move.

Hope that's more clear!

 

[baradtgnome]

thanks for all the input - you have basically covered all the conversation that we had about the subject. Some were for and some were against, but we did not have the definitive is the tumble part of the move or an activity during the move.

any official rulings around on this?

 

[Fisk]

I Don't see where "Tumbling" is an activity in this situation

I can see it as some thing you do... as in when you perform.

But I don't see it as an activity when you land after you fall its just some thing thats a part of your character.

The situation we are talking about falls in the in the middle in my oppinion.

While the language in the discription of total defense on page 137 of the PHB "You don't attack or perform any other activty other than moving your speed leads towards no additional tumble movement. I think that due the fact that your speed has been reduce from 30 to 20 (Med size movement) that this is a natural balance in allowing the persons movement to be in the form of a tumble.

If the person had the ability to fly.... would they not be able to fly after a total defense action?


I think that in breaking it down further you could look at "...moving your speed,..." . Then realizing your speed is up 20 feet when you tumble it make sense that you could tumble durring the movement portion.

 

[baradtgnome]

clip..

I think that in breaking it down further you could look at "...moving your speed,..." . Then realizing your speed is up 20 feet when you tumble it make sense that you could tumble durring the movement portion.

No, that is not quite right. You can Tumble up to 20 as part of your normal move. Tumbling does not reduce or increase your move. Just that up to 20' of it can be tumbling.

from the FAQ

Q: The description for the Tumble skill says you can tumble
up to 20 feet as part of normal movement to move through
an area occupied by an enemy (DC 25), or through an area
threatened by an enemy (DC 15). Does the 20 feet have to
be continuous? If your enemies are staggered apart and you
have enough movement to go through or past all of them,
can you break the 20 feet up into 5-foot chunks to get past
each enemy? Or is this not allowed because it counts as
multiple uses of the Tumble skill? If it is allowed, do you
have to make a separate roll for each enemy you try to
pass? What if you tumble as part of a Spring Attack?

A: Tumbling is part of movement, not a separate action. You can tumble any number of times during a move action, so long as you do not tumble more than 20 feet or move farther than your speed. Each time you tumble, you make a separate Tumble check, using whatever DC is applicable at the time. If you tumble during a double move, you're allowed 20 feet of tumbling as part of each move action.
If you're using the Spring Attack feat, you're taking a move
action and the attack action, so you're moving once and can tumble a maximum of 20 feet as part of that single move. You
could, however, tumble both before and after the attack.

.....
So more specifically it does say that tumbling is part of movement, not a separate action. Which leads credance to the you can tumble AND total defense argument.

Counter arguments to that?

 

[mikebr99]

From the FAQ:

The description for the Tumble skill says you can tumble up to 20 feet as part of normal movement to move through an area occupied by an enemy (DC 25), or through an area threatened by an enemy (DC 15). Does the 20 feet have to be continuous? If your enemies are staggered apart and you
have enough movement to go through or past all of them,
can you break the 20 feet up into 5-foot chunks to get past
each enemy? Or is this not allowed because it counts as
multiple uses of the Tumble skill? If it is allowed, do you
have to make a separate roll for each enemy you try to
pass? What if you tumble as part of a Spring Attack?
Tumbling is part of movement, not a separate action. You
can tumble any number of times during a move action, so long as you do not tumble more than 20 feet or move farther than
your speed. Each time you tumble, you make a separate
Tumble check, using whatever DC is applicable at the time. If
you tumble during a double move, you're allowed 20 feet of
tumbling as part of each move action.
If you're using the Spring Attack feat, you're taking a move
action and the attack action, so you're moving once and can
tumble a maximum of 20 feet as part of that single move. You
could, however, tumble both before and after the attack.

 

[Fisk]

No, that is not quite right. You can Tumble up to 20 as part of your normal move. Tumbling does not reduce or increase your move. Just that up to 20' of it can be tumbling.

from the FAQ

Q: The description for the Tumble skill says you can tumble
up to 20 feet as part of normal movement to move through ........ect.

So more specifically it does say that tumbling is part of movement, not a separate action. Which leads credance to the you can tumble AND total defense argument.

Counter arguments to that?

I was viewing tumbling as part of normal movement ... but was having a hard time as to saying why... my post was an attempt to write what I was thinking...

The FaQ was helpful thanks for posting it.

 

[daemonslye]

MainFAQv10252002:

A: Tumbling is part of movement, not a separate action.

This clears things up.

*Rogues and bards dancing in the streets. The fighter
just shakes his head....*

~D

 

[Fisk]

MainFAQv10252002:

This clears things up.

*Rogues and bards dancing in the streets. The fighter
just shakes his head....*

~D

Yes... but they're shaking their heads in full magically echanted armor and sheilds. So while they are shaking it is plain to see that they don't have the smarts to know how good they have it.

 

[baradtgnome]

MainFAQv10252002:

This clears things up.

*Rogues and bards dancing in the streets. The fighter
just shakes his head....*

~D

shouldn't that be rogues and bards tumbling in the streets

Well, this may not be that unbalaced pardon the pun

Total defense requires a standard action, leaving only a standard move with an up to 20' tumble in there. That is not a clean get away by any stretch. and you have given up an attack. Tumbling in general is viewed as one of the more 'powerful' skills by many...

Hey, look on the bright side. The rogue doesn't get a reflex save from the fighters big sharp sword.