tumble + fly?

[Pielorinho]

My first rule of DMing these days is this:

When in doubt, say "yes."

In other words, if a player asks you if an ability would work, and you're not sure, say that it'll work. Only nix an idea if it would be completely unbalancing and/or create a boring, always-effective tactic.

HOWEVER: give the same generosity of rules-interpretation to the NPCs, too. If you have any question about whether a given NPC tactic would work, say yes.

This is fun. It's not fun for a player to be told "no," but it is fun for a player to get to try fancy new techniques, and it's fun for a player to face fancy new techniques.

Given that basic philosophy, I say that tumbling while flying is perfectly fine.

Daniel

 

[sdt]

heh - why not ask if you can tumble while swimming? While burrowing?

Allow the one, all 'em all

That said - this is a RULES forum, so let me cite a couple for you...

Check: You can land softly when you fall or tumble past opponents. You can also tumble to entertain an audience (as though using the Perform skill). The DCs for various tasks involving the Tumble skill are given on the table below.

Note the 'land' terminology? Also note the DC modifiers are based on SURFACES - what surface are you tumbling on when flying??

...

I'd still say no to burrowing and tumbling though.

It seems that if you need a surface to tumble, then flying adjcent to some solid surface would allow tumbling.

 

[borc killer]

heh - why not ask if you can tumble while swimming? While burrowing?
*edit*
Note that tumbling is impossible in a deep bog, and that the less friction you have, the higher the DC modifier.
*edit*
I'd still say no to burrowing and tumbling though.

I think that it would be pretty clear that if you can not tumble in a deep bog then that would be roughly the same as underwater or if you were burrowing. So i think those are out of the question... unless something else helped you out with it... like freedom of movement for water or Xorn movement with freedom of movement for burrow.

Borc Killer

 

[Shallown]

I'm sorry but I think I'm a little confused.

Why does tumbling have to be all handsprings and rolls. Can't it be just twisting and turning your body, like a basket ball player or a footbal player avoiding tackles. I mean they never tuck into a roll but they often move around and through threatened squares.

And also why the turning. Since there is no facing a flyer can face whatever direction and I would assume be able to turn thier body enough to see what is around them or twist and turn when fighting with a sword.

I allow tumble and even allow tripping flying opponents (they don't fall or become Prone literally. it is more a matter of becoming disorientated and having to spend a move to right themselves)

Don't take the word "Tumbling" to literally. And just have fun with it.

later

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

I'm sorry but I think I'm a little confused.

Why does tumbling have to be all handsprings and rolls. Can't it be just twisting and turning your body, like a basket ball player or a footbal player avoiding tackles. I mean they never tuck into a roll but they often move around and through threatened squares.

--edit--

Don't take the word "Tumbling" to literally. And just have fun with it.

later

Whereas I'd agree, the fun element is the vastly more important element where, it's also fun to discuss the exact, precise, detail of a rule in these rules forums .

Sure you can house rule anything that's fun - on the fly.

But what do the rules say??

A basketball player, as you so nicely illustrate in your post, is ducking, weaving, twisting etc.... i.e. DODGING people. Do that on the ground or in the air, and there are rules to cover it. Dodge + Mobility + Improved Mobility and/or certain PrC's have that covered nicely.

Tumbling is different though. It's not just the surface you need, but something pulling you against that surface. In this instance, you could argue whether flying along a wall would allow you to tumble or not - it could get complicated or be a simple yes.

However you decide to rule on such a thing - you are house ruling.

The rules indicate with the phrase "You can land softly when you fall or tumble past opponents" that you must have some surface, and some attraction to that surface, in order to tumble.


BTW: Another counterpoint to allowing a flying tumble? Ooooh Boooy you just made dragons that much NASTIER.... No, you can't hit the dragon as he flys by - he's tumbling.


You ask me to not take 'tumbling' too literally and just have fun. I am taking it literally - to have fun. Unless you take rules as literally as they are written, you open them up to interpretation. Theres enough of those spots in the rules where you have to interpret that I'd prefer to not open up more...


That said, I'd probably allow flying tumbling in my game too... the villains would have far more fun with it

 

[Pielorinho]

BTW: Another counterpoint to allowing a flying tumble? Ooooh Boooy you just made dragons that much NASTIER.... No, you can't hit the dragon as he flys by - he's tumbling.

We use a version of the Monte Cook tumble rules: DC=10+opponent's highest melee attack, or 20+highest melee attack to tumble through the space. If it made sense to allow a particular dragon to tumble -- that is, if it'd be a cool image (and it sometimes would be) -- I'd have no trouble at all allowing this trick. Most dragons would probably either not get too many points in tumble or would need to treat it as a "cross-class" skill, but I'd allow it.

Daniel

 

[Saeviomagy]

1) I don't allow it, therefore it is simple, because the DMG does somewhat give rules for it but not nearly enough.

Don't allow what?

Do you ban
a) Tumbling while not walking
b) Tumbling while not using your primary form of movement
c) Tumbling while flying
d) Tumbling while flying with a maneuverability of less than perfect
?

Saying "I ban it" doesn't constitute a rule - you have to specifically list WHAT you ban.

2) It is still fun, because thats what the players make it, i am merely an arbitrator/story teller. Granted this is only my first time DMing but, i figured that you would know by now that you can only tell the story and nudge people a little bit, they have to do the work and make it fun. There are many times in the course of an adventure that a character does not get to use every single one of his abilities when it would be nice to have it. but that IS life.

Being allowed to use unique abilities of your character: Fun
Not being allowed to use unique abilities of your character: Not fun

While admittedly it is possible to run an engaging game with characters that are all identical and powerless, it's very very difficult to avoid the players getting the feeling that it doesn't matter what they do, because the DM is basically just narrating a story.

While this is certainly a choice based upon individual playing style, your selection of D&D as a system suggests that you are interested in allowing players to contribute in a meaningful way and affect the world around them. To then strip away abilities with zero contribution to the story (ie - is it essential to the plot that a flying rogue cannot tumble?) is being more than a little silly.

3)
And the fact that just because its magic doesnt mean it cannot be reasoned out. Just because its magic doesn't mean that a character should be able to outmaneuver something that has perfect flying, because that is what it comes down to. No matter how easily you want to dismiss it, that Air Elemental CANNOT do anything near as good as tumbling, and as i posted earlier there are only 3 creatures that can fly and tumble in the whole damn book, and all of those have listed ground movement too, which to me implys that they use it while on the ground. So if thats the case you might as well give anyone with tumble when they get fly cast on them perfect maneuverability because that is essentially what your doing.

An air elemental with equal ranks in tumble can maneuver better than the rogue you list.

Perfect maneuverability has a list of things it allows you to do, things that tumble CANNOT let you do.

Perfect maneuverability allows you to turn on a dime in mid air. Good maneuverability requires 1 square of movement between each turn.

Perfect maneuverability allows you to fly directly upwards at full speed. Good maneuverability requires you to move at half.

Tumble lets you avoid melee strikes. That's it. That's all it does. It doesn't affect your movement in any other way.

It certainly doesn't allow you to fly with perfect maneuverability.

Finally - I'd certainly allow tumbling while swimming. It's just maneuvering around after all.

As for burrowing - I'm hard pressed to imagine a situation where you NEED to tumble when burrowing, but I'd allow it. After all - most of the burrowing speeds are listed as 20 feet or more in 6 seconds, so these things are practically swimming through the earth anyway.

 

[LGodamus]

Borc one problem with your ruling that jumps out at me is this: you keep saying turns , as in game terminology, it doesnt mean changing facing as you seem to be saying it actually means changing directions ....IE I am running north and TURN to the east ... .........tumbling, like cartwheeling,spinning and dodging involves no turns.

 

[Yorik the Great]

Lets set the situation here so everyone can understand why this rule issue came up (which didn't really slow our game down at all we almost always end up agreeing on these things eventually). The encounter consisted of three flying creatures of medium size, which started out on the ground. After combat was initiated two of the three took to the air to avoid melee combat and use their many different spell like abilities against the party. The wizard of the group quickly cast fly on "Borc Killer's" character, which was soon followed by a mass enlarge. Later a gravely wounded enlarged "Borc Killer" wanted to retreat from his flanked mid-air position by tumbling down through the air in order to avoid attacks of opportunity.

This is when Borc ruled that he would not be able to use his tumbling skill while flying. I believe that this was the correct decision, FLY is already an incredible 3rd level spell that allows a freedom of movement and speed that most characters could not achieve any other way. Despite claims to the contrary I doubt that there are few if any corporal creatures that could maneuver through a large battle as well as 10th level or higher character who can max out their tumbling skill. To allow characters to move around and through creatures squares in a foreign environment against creatures/npcs which may have better flying mobility than the character in question seems a little too good to me.

There is a reason that Fly By Attack is a separate feat instead of just using Spring Attack, and I believe its because the way something moves while flying is greatly different than how you move on the ground.

And for my 2cents Borc has been doing an exceptional job as a DM and its not really his first time this is the fourth or fifth adventure in a series that he has been running and he has done a better job with each one.

 

[Plane Sailing]

This is fun. It's not fun for a player to be told "no," but it is fun for a player to get to try fancy new techniques, and it's fun for a player to face fancy new techniques.

This would be the best argument for saying yes, to my mind.

Although I still say no to tumbling while flying, I DO allow tumbling while air-walking (somersaults, lands on his feet 5ft lower down in the air etc.) That made sense when it came up and was fun.

Cheers