tumble + fly?

[Borc]

ok here is my new ruling on this now that i just missed the most obvious point that you have just stated.
First Point:
While tumbling how many times do you "turn" and "turn in place" while tumbling?
first off you start tumbling by cutting your movement rate in half, next to do a tumble you would have to turn in place at least twice to get the momentum going which is -10ft, movement up and down would be nullified unless you were trying to tumble over the creature in which you would be just adding more negatives to your movement. so now we are at 20ft of movement left before you even leave your square, tumbling as read in the dictionary involves contortions of the body and twists and turns and rolls, so you add in at least one summersault which = 360 degrees and thats equal to a 20ft movement in basically 5 ft, so to finish this off... THEORETICALLY you will have only moved 5ft by the end of your tumble, and you had to roll for it meaning that there is a chance (as slim as it would be) that you could fail to take a free 5 foot move action.

and i do not think it is unreasonable in the least to say that you would have to AT LEAST do a full spin and a half to get your momentum going to do any kind of tumbling around a creature while in the air.

So would you rather do a tumble check to take a 5 ft movement or a free 5 ft movement

Second Point:
Ok i will take that point though i dont think that it grants you the ability to learn how to tumble in the air as it is DRASTICLY different from tumbling on the ground, and some moves that work on the ground MAY not work as well in the air.

Third Point:
It is not penalizing the player that has 15pts in tumble it is just not allowing the player to use the skill in an element that he is not accustomed to using it... just like a ranger trying to track an air elemental by smelling the air rather then following his tracks.

 

[jblevo04]

I completely agree with Borc on this one. I just think it is completely ridiculous to allow tumbling in the air w/o some huge penalties, if even then. Flying is already one of the best (if not the best) forms of movement. Just supporting the man. Stay strong Borc, oppress the air tumblers!

 

[Lladnar]

The same arguments could be used against attacking a creature from the air. After all most characters gained the majority (if not all) of their BAB while practising ground based attacks.

 

[borc killer]

Last post here. This does not need to be our chat board and this board is about how rules are not how they should be.

I am not sure why you think the PC would need to generate momentum... because they would not. They just pick a direction mentally and they move in that direction.

As for how much movement would be eaten up by tumbling is a good question. I think it is 2 turn in place actions per movement. So it would look like this:

60/2 = 30 total upwards movement.
30/2 = 15 total upwards movement with tumble.
15-10 = 5 total upwards movement with tumble + 2 turn in place actions

60x2 = 120 total downward movement.
120/2 = 60 total downward movement with tumble.
60-10 = 50 total downward movement with tumble + 2 turn in place actions.

60x0 = 60 total lateral movement.
60/2 = 30 total lateral movement with tumble.
30-10 = 20 total lateral movement with tumble + 2 turn in place actions

As for the spell providing the knowledge of how to do it… flying is drastically different than walking… yet you can do it… with magic.

As for the tracking comparison… there are spells that can give the ranger the Scent special ability (and feats too as i recall) and then he would be able to track it… with in the limitations of the scent ability of course. That is what magic does. It makes things possible.

I will talk with your more about it in RL Broc. If anyone else has anything to add please feel free!

Thanks guys!

Borc Killer

 

[Borc]

Your right about one thing, it is a good question, and obviously not one i am likely to agree with you over, as i think it takes at least 5-6 turn in place actions to "tumble" onto the other side of a flying N/PC, and not all of it is going to be in one kind of movement (i.e. lateral, down, up) so therefore all of those directions are arbitrary to argue.

There are too many unknowns for there to be an easy answer for this question. The easiest answer is either to allow it or disallow it, and i just keep going back to the same old point i had before.

Why should someone with the Fly spell cast on him be able to outmanuever a creature that has lived its WHOLE life flying and can fly PERFECTLY. why can an Air elemental not fly as good as a PC with moderate tumble. We are talking about a creature that is in its element and yet it cannot NEARLY as well as a roguelike PC with fly cast on him. The problem is that there is no real investment by the PC to learn how to fly aerobatically, so they dont learn the "finer" points of flying like an air elemental or something else with "Perfect" maneuverability.

I guess that really the easiest solution to this whole problem is for my NPCs to carry scrolls of dispell to cast on those flying critters

 

[Saeviomagy]

Why should someone with the Fly spell cast on him be able to outmanuever a creature that has lived its WHOLE life flying and can fly PERFECTLY. why can an Air elemental not fly as good as a PC with moderate tumble. We are talking about a creature that is in its element and yet it cannot NEARLY as well as a roguelike PC with fly cast on him. The problem is that there is no real investment by the PC to learn how to fly aerobatically, so they dont learn the "finer" points of flying like an air elemental or something else with "Perfect" maneuverability.

The fly spell allows you to outmaneuver most flying creatures anyway, creatures which have been flying all their lives.

Beyond that, tumble doesn't make you fly better than an air elemental - the elemental still has perfect maneuverability, and the fly speed doesn't. Nothing you can do can fix that.

Finally - a ruling is a good ruling if it
1. Is simple
2. Is fun
3. Is realistic

Your proposed "no you can't tumble without a natural fly speed and (possibly) a maneuverability of perfect" is
1. Not nearly as simple as "tumble works as normal"
2. Not fun - it's about shutting down a major PC ability, just so you can smack him with an air elemental
3. Not realistic. Because you're talking about magic in the first damn place.

Let him do it. Maybe add some quirks, but let him do it. A good DM is an enabling DM.

 

[Borc]

Finally - a ruling is a good ruling if it
1. Is simple
2. Is fun
3. Is realistic

1) I don't allow it, therefore it is simple, because the DMG does somewhat give rules for it but not nearly enough.
2) It is still fun, because thats what the players make it, i am merely an arbitrator/story teller. Granted this is only my first time DMing but, i figured that you would know by now that you can only tell the story and nudge people a little bit, they have to do the work and make it fun.
3) There are many times in the course of an adventure that a character does not get to use every single one of his abilities when it would be nice to have it. but that IS life.
And the fact that just because its magic doesnt mean it cannot be reasoned out. Just because its magic doesn't mean that a character should be able to outmaneuver something that has perfect flying, because that is what it comes down to. No matter how easily you want to dismiss it, that Air Elemental CANNOT do anything near as good as tumbling, and as i posted earlier there are only 3 creatures that can fly and tumble in the whole damn book, and all of those have listed ground movement too, which to me implys that they use it while on the ground. So if thats the case you might as well give anyone with tumble when they get fly cast on them perfect maneuverability because that is essentially what your doing.

 

[green slime]

Just because a PC has a fly speed and tumble does not mean he has perfect manueverability. It just means he can twist in the air so as to better elude hits aimed at him, as he passes through threatened areas.

Now when he uses magic that grants him a fly speed and perfect maneuverability, and he has tumble, then he is very good at manuevering in three dimensions.

The problem is one really with the low level of the fly spell, rather than the ability to tumble...

 

[Plane Sailing]

I don't allow it. Tumbling relies upon the ability to jump off surfaces, roll along surfaces, change direction dramatically etc. When flying there isn't the contact with surfaces to make this possible. I'd not allow tumbling underwater for the same reason.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

heh - why not ask if you can tumble while swimming? While burrowing?

Allow the one, all 'em all

That said - this is a RULES forum, so let me cite a couple for you...

Check: You can land softly when you fall or tumble past opponents. You can also tumble to entertain an audience (as though using the Perform skill). The DCs for various tasks involving the Tumble skill are given on the table below.

Note the 'land' terminology? Also note the DC modifiers are based on SURFACES - what surface are you tumbling on when flying??

Modifiers
Surface Is . . . DC Modifier
Lightly obstructed (scree, light rubble, shallow bog1, undergrowth) +2
Severely obstructed (natural cavern floor, dense rubble, dense undergrowth) +5
Lightly slippery (wet floor) +2
Severely slippery (ice sheet) +5
Sloped or angled +2
1 Tumbling is impossible in a deep bog.

Note that tumbling is impossible in a deep bog, and that the less friction you have, the higher the DC modifier.

If borc killer was in my game, he'd get a 'not' as an in-game ruling. If he kicked up enough fuss in a post game review - I'd show him these tips then offer a compromise of a +10 DC modifier.

If he can tumble on a DC 30/35 check - let 'em.

I'd still say no to burrowing and tumbling though.