Tumble problems

[Water Bob]

My point though is that appear to have leapt to the assumption that D&D is a "tolkien-esque universe" and therefore the Tumble skill feels out of place to you.

I said that D&D has a Tolkien-esque universe because that's where D&D's roots lay.

D&D can be run/played a variety of ways.

Absolutley agree. Especially with the d20 (3.0 and 3.5) system. It can be grim and gritty or super heroric. Simulationist or abstract. The system is very flexible for different types of play.

Tumble fits the assumptions of the D&D rules and the "implied setting" of the game; it's not Braveheart, it's not Conan, it's not Fafhrd & Grey Mouser, it's not Elric, and it's not 300 or Prince of Persia either.

Not sure I agree with you here. I do think there is an implied setting with D&D, and it is Tolkien-esque. Different races. Serious Elves. Grumpy Dwarves. Light-hearted Halflings. Goblins and Orcs. Mages.

The "roots" of D&D are very much Tolkien-esque. If you want to play "Braveheart" or "Conan" or "Elric" or "Fafhrd & The Grey Mouser", you've got to make some adjustments.

So for example, you can run a political-focused game in 3.x, despite the fact that it's got really poor support for anything other than killing things and taking their stuff.

Just FYI, the Conan game has an entire supplement (that Mongoose released for free!) that focuses on nothing but a politically-based game.

If it's a problem, just remove the skill.

I don't think that's necessary. I'm already thinking of the players encountering some naked Amazons, or maybe some savage backwards Picts that are masters of the tumble. They use spears that are designed to be used with the Tumble, and they wear nothing but a cloth over their groins held by a hemp rope at their waists.

My "problem" with Tumble is that it seems to be a bit "specialized" when most of the skills are quite broad.

I like opening up things for discussion and seeing what others say, too.

 

[Water Bob]

My point though is that appear to have leapt to the assumption that D&D is a "tolkien-esque universe"....

...it's not Braveheart, it's not Conan, it's not Fafhrd & Grey Mouser, it's not Elric, and it's not 300 or Prince of Persia either.

It's really its own strange little thing that people then drift to match their own sensibilities.

Just FYI: Here's a quote from the Creator himself--

Even Gary Gygax, creator of D&D told us in an interview: "Just about all the players were huge JRRT fans, and so they insisted that I put as much Tolkien-influence material into the game as possible. Anyone reading this that recalls the original D&D game will know that there were Balrogs, Ents, and Hobbits in it. Later those were removed, and new, non-JRRT things substituted-Balor demons, Treants, and Halflings."

 

[Dandu]

*blink-blink, Homer Simpson stare*

You may not play that way, but you don't understand how it can be more immersive to know and picture clearly every item a character carries? What it looks like...the history behind the item...where the character wears it?

If you can't understand that, I'm not sure I can explain it to you.

I like Yahtzee.

I don't, of course, mean the game. The game sucks as far as I'm concerned. I am talking about the internet personality/professional troll/game critic.

He is a big fan of immersion in his games. He has talked about that makes a game like Silent Hill 2 immersive to him, and I agree with several of his points.

Immersion is best carried out by atmosphere. Believable setting, good description characterization, plot, interactions, etc. A fantasy reality removed from that in which we exist, yet which we can easily lose ourselves in because it seems so real.

I don't see how keeping minute track of nitpicky details aids immersion compared to, say, a well constructed campaign setting with moving characters or involving dialogue.

So, would you kindly answer the question of how keeping track of minutia aids immersion?

 

[Water Bob]

I like Yahtzee.

Never heard of him.

Immersion is best carried out by atmosphere. Believable setting, good description characterization, plot, interactions, etc. A fantasy reality removed from that in which we exist, yet which we can easily lose ourselves in because it seems so real.

That's definitely part of it.

I don't see how keeping minute track of nitpicky details aids immersion compared to, say, a well constructed campaign setting with moving characters or involving dialogue.

So, would you kindly answer the question of how keeping track of minutia aids immersion?

I did, above. It lends itself to reality. A player can visualize exactly what he is wearing, knows exactly where everything he carries is stored on his body. If Caelis (above) loses his mirror, it's not just an item he dropped--it's something his dad gave him. Same thing goes for his weapon girdle--his father had three of those made, and Caelis' two brothers wear them.

If you're a mage, you visualize all the little things that make you a mage. All those spell compenents. How they must smell! I had a player who kept "collecting thing" when the party killed monsters--sometimes eyes, sometimes hair, sometimes tongue. Just stuff his mage might be able to use as a spell component.

Instead of just throwing a Web spell, the player visualizes actually pinching out some cobweb he took from the ceiling of the last inn he stayed at.

It doesn't sound like you'd be interested in gaming this way, and that's OK. My group is really into story and immersion and actually "living" in a fantasy world, being those characters, feeling the skree beneath our sandled feet, freezing in the cold snow-melt stream, the wing blowing through long, dark hair as we swing from a rope across a chasm.

We pay attention to the details, and it enhances our game.

Does that answer your question?

 

[Jimlock]

Ok.... at first you mention Blade Runner.... my MOST BELOVED movie of all times... and i say... ok Water Bob is an ok guy....

...then you mention Brave heart... and i'm starting to think... dude.. "FREEDOM" ???? really???
actually... watching Mel Gibson play cool (with the exception of Mad Max) makes me wanna throw up... but that's just me...

NOW...BEFORE YOU STRIKE BACK AT ME...I'M JUST KIDDING... AND I STILL THINK YOU ARE OK.. AND YES... I CAN UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT WITH BRAVEHEART (pretty realistic fights... the scenery..... and all ... the movie has quite a few traits ... but in the end it all goes down to the fact that a 1000 Holywood violins try "persistently" to make you cry)

unfortunately there is NOT ONE single medieval-dark ages-fantasy movie that captures the "essence" of the setting...

nothing close as how ALIEN 1.. and 3... capture the "essence" of a sci-fi settings...

ok...i'm off topic... i know... just wanted to talk movies for a bit...

--------------

ok tumble...

tumble is actually a great skill... and although it certainly allows you to do what Pris does (and much much more!!!) you do not have to flip around all the time so as to evade blows. "Tumbling" in a battle so as to evade AOOs is not NECESSARILY a circus act. You move fast you... "bluff" with your body... you get out of the way... much like a trained martial artist does... you can play it out as "circusly" or as "simple" as you like.

Tumble can serve for "parkour" (as in doing whatever you must to get from A to B the fastest way possible... "impressing" is out of the question)
Tumble can serve for "free-running" (as in flip-floping around to impress)

choose whatever you like OR ...even better choose them all... a different style for each character... i assure you there plenty of different ways you can play it out, with a different flavor for each PC or NPC.

but what's more important... is that it's a skill that, if used properly, can allow a character to use the terrain/environment/site of the battle... and again... not NECESSARILY as flash-ly as Prince of Persia... Tumble... with proper story telling can really make the battle terrain/environment/site (and not just in a battle!!!) spring to life and make for more realistic play... it can really take your mind of the fact that you are staring at figures moving "statically" from one 5ft square to the next..

just watch some David Belle (parkour co-founder) on youtube.

Parkour (sometimes abbreviated to PK) is a utilitarian discipline based upon the direct, successful, swift traversing of one's surrounding environment via the practical application of techniques, based around the concept of self-preservation. It is a non-competitive, physical discipline of French origin in which participants run along a route, attempting to negotiate obstacles in the most efficient way possible, using only their bodies. Skills such as jumping, climbing, vaulting, rolling, swinging and wall scaling are employed. Parkour can be practiced anywhere, but areas dense with obstacles are preferable and it is most commonly practiced in urban areas.

 

[Wyvernhand]

You wanna really REALLY wrack your brain on something? Per 3.5 RAW, a dwarf in full plate can tumble. Yea. In full plate. Cartwheels and all.

You can only tumble if your movement is not reduced due to armor/load. A sufficiently strong dwarf can wear his suit of full plate without being above a light load. Dwarves never suffer movement penalties due to armor. Thus, said strong dwarf can tumble all he wants in whatever armor he wants, assuming he has enough ranks to make up for the ACP. Kinda makes your issue with leather armor and loose equipment a bit smaller, eh?

 

[Vegepygmy]

I said that D&D has a Tolkien-esque universe because that's where D&D's roots lay.

Tolkien is only one of many sources of inspiration listed in Appendix N, and Gygax himself made it abundantly clear over the years that he was by far a lesser one. Even the quote you cite implies that the Tolkien-esque material was included only grudgingly.

So I have to disagree with you. D&D's real roots lay in pulp "sword and sorcery," not Tolkien.

 

[jonesy]

My group is really into story and immersion and actually "living" in a fantasy world...

DM: "You arrive to a valley. There is something fantastic up ahead, but it's hard to see due to the bright light it is emitting.."
Player 1: "Hang on. I'm not wearing socks with my work boots. Does anyone have spare socks?"
DM: "..it has noticed you and speaks. It says.."
Player 2: "I've got socks I'm not using. But they were given to me by my grandfather. They're my lucky socks. I wouldn't want them to get dirty."
DM: "..guys? The amazing creature bathed in angelic light is talking to you. It wants.."
Player 3: "I thought you never wore socks with your work boots? Why do you need them now?"
Player 1: "Last adventure I got a hole in my boots, and now there's snow on the ground. It's getting a bit chilly here."
Player 2: "Oh, ok. You can have my lucky socks."
Player 1: "Thanks. Are these wool? They're really nice."
Player 3: "They do look nice, actually. You wouldn't happen to have another pair?"
DM: "..guys? Guys? Nevermind, it went away."

 

[Water Bob]

Ok.... at first you mention Blade Runner.... my MOST BELOVED movie of all times... and i say... ok Water Bob is an ok guy....

Man, did you see the new, cleaned up cut? Wow. Almost 30 years old and still looks fantastic.

You're going to hate me, though. I like the narrated version better. Not visually, but I think the narration adds to the atmosphere. They shouldn't have taken it out, imo.

...then you mention Brave heart... and i'm starting to think... dude.. "FREEDOM" ???? really???

You've got to admit that Braveheart was a massively popular movie.

... watching Mel Gibson play cool (with the exception of Mad Max)
nothing close as how ALIEN 1.. and 3... capture the "essence" of a sci-fi settings...

ALIENS is my favorite. It's a perfect movie. I like Alien, too. I think 3 has great atmosphere but is a bad, boring film.

Funny...when I thought of Braveheart above, I was thinking of the Alien films, but I needed a historical or fantasy themed film. Wierd.

Tumble can serve for "parkour" ...

Right. Like the Bomb-maker Chase scene in Casino Royale. I've seen the Chinese Acrobatics Team, too. They're amazing.

But, niether of these are wearing armor or have weapons and stuff hanging off of them.

I can believe that Tumbling can be done. Where I'm having trouble is allowing it in my game when a character has equipment hanging on him.

There should be a trail of all sorts of stuff behind him--his dagger, some coin from his waist pouch, his tinderbox that slipped out.

And, the water skin slapped him in the face while he was doing his parkour move.

You wanna really REALLY wrack your brain on something? Per 3.5 RAW, a dwarf in full plate can tumble. Yea. In full plate. Cartwheels and all.

Yeah, that's just completely crazy. I wouldn't allow that in my game at all.

Tolkien is only one of many sources of inspiration listed in Appendix N, and Gygax himself made it abundantly clear over the years that he was by far a lesser one. Even the quote you cite implies that the Tolkien-esque material was included only grudgingly.

So I have to disagree with you. D&D's real roots lay in pulp "sword and sorcery," not Tolkien.

Several sources, yes. Primarily Tolkien, absolutely.

 

[Dandu]

Yeah, that's just completely crazy. I wouldn't allow that in my game at all.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg]YouTube - Armour Aerobics[/ame]