Tumble

[Friend of the Dork]

Sorry if this has been discussed to death, but I don't have the "privilege" to search these forums so here it is anyway:

How does tumble work? DCs are ok, erhm I mean understandable, but it is not described how they work if you fail.

1. What happens if you try and fail to tumble out of a square an enemy threatens?

2. What happens if you fail at tumbling through a square occupied by an enemy?

3. What if there are more than one enemy to tumble past?

4. Or even more than one to tumble through?

5. What if there are both?

6. What if one or more opponents are stunned, blinded, dazed or otherwise prevented from making AoOs?

7. If you need to test against more than one opponent at a time, which order?

8. When tumbling at half speed must the entire move action be half speed or only the squares the enemy threatens you?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Acrobatics (Dex; Armor Check Penalty) - Pathfinder_OGC

1. Tumbling merely prevents the AoO for moving, tumbling itself isn't a provoking action. While moving provokes the AoO, it is resolved before you leave the square. So, the easy scenario is if you're willing to move and take the AoO. Simple. Not so simple: Can you upon realizing tumble didn't work decide to not move and avoid the AoO? Since tumbling is done as part of movement, I'd assume you could not "put the breaks on," but it could be more clear.

2. The update directly answers that. I think losing your entire move action is too harsh, you should be able to use your remaining movement however you want for that move action, but that's just my opinion.

3. In 3E, it was +2 DC per additional foe. In PF, they seem to have removed that from the DC modifiers tables, so you "just" have to roll high enough to beat each creature's CMD, any you fail to can take their AoO on you.

4. As above. You beat CMD +5, you move through that square, you don't beat the creature's CMD +5, you fail and provoke. I would use one die roll for all enemies, rather than making the tumbler roll each instance.

5. You roll your tumble. Anyone who you're tumbling by and beat their CMD, you don't provoke, anyone you fail to you do provoke. Anyone you're tumbling through their space, you win by CMD +5, you get through, you fail and your movement ceases for that move action and that creature gets to AoO you.

6. Multiple opponents doesn't increase DC anymore and are just more CMD scores to need to beat, so these foes would have no impact at all on what you can do. I'm not sure if the designers intended for you to automatically succeed at slipping through the legs or somersaulting over a stunned person, but I see no problem with it, myself.

7. I'd just use one tumble roll for the entire move action and apply it where needed, much simpler. Otherwise...do it in the order that you move past/through...

8. In 3E it was unequivocably only for the squares you were tumbling. PF used less clear text, but I still think this is the case, as it says "When moving in this way, you move at half speed." There's no logical reason to be tumbling in completely clear squares, other than to show off.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

Acrobatics (Dex; Armor Check Penalty) - Pathfinder_OGC

1. Tumbling merely prevents the AoO for moving, tumbling itself isn't a provoking action. While moving provokes the AoO, it is resolved before you leave the square. So, the easy scenario is if you're willing to move and take the AoO. Simple. Not so simple: Can you upon realizing tumble didn't work decide to not move and avoid the AoO? Since tumbling is done as part of movement, I'd assume you could not "put the breaks on," but it could be more clear.

2. The update directly answers that. I think losing your entire move action is too harsh, you should be able to use your remaining movement however you want for that move action, but that's just my opinion.

3. In 3E, it was +2 DC per additional foe. In PF, they seem to have removed that from the DC modifiers tables, so you "just" have to roll high enough to beat each creature's CMD, any you fail to can take their AoO on you.

4. As above. You beat CMD +5, you move through that square, you don't beat the creature's CMD +5, you fail and provoke. I would use one die roll for all enemies, rather than making the tumbler roll each instance.

5. You roll your tumble. Anyone who you're tumbling by and beat their CMD, you don't provoke, anyone you fail to you do provoke. Anyone you're tumbling through their space, you win by CMD +5, you get through, you fail and your movement ceases for that move action and that creature gets to AoO you.

6. Multiple opponents doesn't increase DC anymore and are just more CMD scores to need to beat, so these foes would have no impact at all on what you can do. I'm not sure if the designers intended for you to automatically succeed at slipping through the legs or somersaulting over a stunned person, but I see no problem with it, myself.

7. I'd just use one tumble roll for the entire move action and apply it where needed, much simpler. Otherwise...do it in the order that you move past/through...

8. In 3E it was unequivocably only for the squares you were tumbling. PF used less clear text, but I still think this is the case, as it says "When moving in this way, you move at half speed." There's no logical reason to be tumbling in completely clear squares, other than to show off.

¨Thanks for the link, didnt realize that.

It seems my ruling last night was consistent with the update (and 3.5 more or less).

For multiple opponents - both my book and the link says clearly there is +2 per enemy beyond the first.

There is no mention if there is one or more rolls, but I agree it is more elegant to demand one roll to beat the all, and I suppose I can track the +5 DC for moving through separately.

8. This is where I am still uncertain. If they wanted only the actual squares tumbled through to reduce movement they could have written "count as difficult terrain, or simply "the square(s) tumbled through takes 2 squares of movement per square".

Instead they wrote "when moving in this way"... ah figures.

In my game I don't want it too easy to dance around the battlefield ignoring enemies like in 3.5, but I don't want it impossible for rogues to get their flanking either. So essentially they should be able to get behind someone if not too far away, but tumbling through a line of soldiers should be very difficult.


Edit: Oh I found the paragraph on multiple opponents:

Acrobatics: How does Acrobatics (Core Rulebook, page 87) work when you use it to avoid attacks of opportunity? When do you make checks? How many do you make?

Acrobatics allows you to make checks to move through the threatened area of foes without provoking attacks of opportunity. You must make a check the moment you attempt to leave a square threatened by an enemy, but only once per foe. The DC (which is based of the Combat Maneuver Defense of each foe), increases by +2 for each foe after the first in one round. The DC also increases by +5 if you attempt to move through a foe. In the case of moving out of the threatened square of two foes at the same time, the moving character decides which check to make first.

So it seems by RAW it is once per foe, with cumulative +2 DC after the first. This makes it almost impossible to tumble past many foes unless you have skill mastery Acrobatics - sooner or later you will roll low. The only advantage is that the tumbler decides which one to roll first.

I might do the "one roll to rule them all" anyway as a house rule, simply to prevent excessive rolling, but also to give the rogue a chance.