Tumbling Clarification

[DM-Rocco]

Okay, my friend and I have a issue we would like to throw at the ENWorld. See attached map for a better idea os what we are talking about.

Okay, assassin, represented by A1-A3 on the map, is starting out at A1 and is surrounded. The party is 1-4 and the M is an NPC mage, unarmed. The assassin, declares player 1 the target of his Spring Attack and moves through the square occupied by the Mage (M), tumbling through a occupied area. He then goes through the mage to end up at area A2, he attacks and then departs to A3. He moves more than 15 feet, the DM didn't say, but assume he can travel this space in half his movement so he doesn't draw the -10 accelerated movement.

Question, he should draw an AOO from players 1-4 but not M since M is unarmed, right?

But he uses tumbling to avoid this, right, so what are the DCs, I said the assassin would have to make a DC 15/17 and 19 to avoid AOO from player 2/3 and 4. Also, he would have to make a DC 25 check to get through the mage (M), right? Or would he have to make a DC 31 to get through the mage (M) since he has to tumble around four players?

Or is it something else?

Your thoughts?

 

[reveal]

Going through the Mage square is a DC 25. If he makes it, then see the next paragraph. If it fails, he stays in square A1 and nothing happens. He provokes from the mage but the mage is unarmed and, thus, cannot make an AoO. Since he didn't move out of or through anyones threatened area, no AoOs from anyone else.

Since he's moving out of PC 3 and 4's threatened areas, DC 15 for one and DC 17 for the other, DMs choice (I would go PC 4 DC 15 and PC 3 DC 17). Then he moves through PC 2's threatened area, so DC 19 there.

 

[DM-Rocco]

So, just to clarify, by making the DC tumble checks, he doesn't provoke AOO from anyone.

Also, Spring Attack really has no bearing on the equation.

However, would Spring Attack have anything to with the equation if the Assassin was attacking player number 1, from the diagonal square across from A1 and then moved away and instead of tumbling through the mage (M) he tumbled through player number 1? This was the original scenario, but the Assassin didn't have enough movement so we reworked the movement to the first equation. Assuming the Assassin had enough movement (not having to take the -10) penalty) to go through player 1 and get another five feet for his spring attack, what would happen as far as DCs and does the unarmed mage become a factor? Perhaps adding a +2 to the mix?

 

[DM-Rocco]

Going through the Mage square is a DC 25. If he makes it, then see the next paragraph. If it fails, he stays in square A1 and nothing happens. He provokes from the mage but the mage is unarmed and, thus, cannot make an AoO. Since he didn't move out of or through anyones threatened area, no AoOs from anyone else.

Since he's moving out of PC 3 and 4's threatened areas, DC 15 for one and DC 17 for the other, DMs choice (I would go PC 4 DC 15 and PC 3 DC 17). Then he moves through PC 2's threatened area, so DC 19 there.

Also, what would happen is he failed the tumble check against players 3 or 4, would he then stop back at square A1 or just provoke a AOO and he would still move?

 

[reveal]

Yes, if you make your checks, regardless of how you move, you provoke no AoOs. That's the cool thing about Tumble. You, literally, could tumble past 10 people in a row if you had enough of a movement rate and a high enough skill mod.

Spring Attack does have a bearing on the equation because, if he did not have Spring Attack and wasn't attacking PC 1, the assassin would provoke from PC 1 and it would require another Tumble check at DC 19 and he would not be able to move to A3 after his attack. But since it is a Spring Attack and he is attacking PC 1, PC 1 does not get an AoO against said attacker.

In your new scenario, it's basically the same thing as before. PCs 3 and 4 both get AoOs against the assassin since he moved out of their threatened area. DCs 15 and 17 accordingly. PC 2 would get one at DC 19 since he's moving through PC 2's threatened area. The mage cannot make an AoO since he is unarmed and cannot make an AoO unarmed unless he has Improved Unarmed Strike. The Assassin makes a Tumble check DC 25 to move through PC 1 and, if successful, can attack from the other side.

If the assassin fails the check to get through PC 1 (DC 25), he would not provoke from PCs 2, 3, and 4 since he didn't actually move. PC 1 would get an AoO even though the assassin was Spring Attacking because he wasn't able to actually make the Spring Attack.

 

[reveal]

Also, what would happen is he failed the tumble check against players 3 or 4, would he then stop back at square A1 or just provoke a AOO and he would still move?

Tumbling past someone does not stop your movement. The PCs would get AoOs but the assassin would keep moving. It only stops movement if someone fails a Tumble check to move through an enemy's square.

 

[Madstylz]

If he failed the DC 19 tumble check, the Assassin would provoke an AoO from 3 & 4 and keep moving.

 

[reveal]

If he failed the DC 19 tumble check, the Assassin would provoke an AoO from 3 & 4 and keep moving.

Not necesarily. He would make two checks, one for PC 3 and one for PC 4. If he makes it for one but not the other, he would only provoke once.

The order in which the checks are made is:

1 - DC 25 to move through the mages square. If it fails, nothing happens except that the assassins movement is stopped for the round. The assassin can try again immediately as part of a double move but could not Spring Attack and, therefor, would provoke an AoO from PC 1 at DC 21. If it succeeds, go to step 2.

2 - Make a check (DC 15) for either PC 3 or 4, since it provokes from both at the same time.

3 - Make a check (DC 17) for the PC who didn't make the check in step 2.

4 - Make a check (DC 19) for PC 2.

4 PCs = 4 separate checks

From the SRD: Check separately for each opponent you move past, in the order in which you pass them... - This is for DC 15 (moving past)

Check separately for each opponent. - For DC 25 (moving through)

 

[dcollins]

The assassin, declares player 1 the target of his Spring Attack and moves through the square occupied by the Mage (M), tumbling through a occupied area.

Actually, my reading is that he cannot do this. Tumble says it is used "as part of normal movement", which to me is a simply move action. I don't allow it in conjunction with a charge, Spring Attack, etc.

 

[reveal]

Actually, my reading is that he cannot do this. Tumble says it is used "as part of normal movement", which to me is a simply move action. I don't allow it in conjunction with a charge, Spring Attack, etc.

Spring Attack: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed.

Tumble is, as you said, part of your "normal movement." So you Tumble while you move, which you can do both before and after a Spring Attack. I don't see the two as mutually exclusive.