Turn Undead - what do you do?
- Thread starter MerricB
- Start date
Odhanan
Adventurer
The d6 damage variant is great. It's simpler, much more straightforward.
I like clerics to face undead like in movies, keeping them at bay and such, though. I think that the whole hit dice thing is actually kind of interesting. I thinks its explanable in-game using another logic, and it can create interesting twists in-game, where indeed the huge Zombie still has a role to play in high level games.
That's like mechanics based on CR. That doesn't bother me much either. It's just another type of logic (for instance, for true names, I'd say the CR may represent the potential impact a being can have on Creation itself, hence the resistance or lack thereof of its true name).
Kerrick
First Post
Won't work. This was the first thing I thought of when I went about trying to make a variant system. Why? Cause the undead's saves are far too low. We're assuming that an undead should have to roll a 10 on the die to make the save vs. a cleric of equal level (or, obversely, a cleric should make a 10 to turn/rebuke an equal CR undead). If you look at the handy chart I provided, you'll see that once you get above CR 3 or so, the undead needs an increasingly smaller number to save. Even if you use UK's system to calculate the CRs, the numbers are still too low - at anything above CR 1, the undead needs to roll somewhere between 4 and 8, depending on its Will save.
And really, the table isn't that hard to remember - you can turn an undead of equal CR on a turn check of 10. Every 3 points higher or lower means you can turn undead 1 level higher or lower than yours. So if I were a L15 cleric and I rolled a 30, I could turn anything up to CR 21 (30-10=20, 20/3=6, 15+6=21). Simple.
Varianor Abroad
Explorer
When one looks at the increasing number of undead in MMII and MMIII and Libris Mortis with Turn Resistance +2 or Turn Resistance +4, it's a problematic mechanic on that basis alone. It's also, as Monte Cook says, an on/off switch. The encounter's either easy or hard. I just do away with it and create a custom ability more appropriate to the PC's religion.
primarchone
Explorer
Alternate turning rules
Hi!
This appeared at rpg.net some months ago. I thought it was well thought out and addresses some of the problems.
I have pasted below the post in full.
Primarch
In 3rd Edition Dungeons and Dragons, there is one overlying rule for the construction of mechanics. If you cannot construct it with a formula, you shouldn’t construct it. This rule has been foolishly disregarded with regards to Turning Undead, which seems to cling to an old table system. The most significant problem with this is that the table is flawed.
Consider the situation above. Tordek, Lidda, Mialee, and Jozan are all 16th-level characters (Fighter, rogue, wizard and cleric, respectively). Tordek’s class features (lots of feats) all coincide to help him in his party role, and are all useful, even at this level. The Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe) he took at first level is still useful. Lidda’s sneak attacks and skill points are still proving useful, as is her Uncanny Dodge. Mialee’s lower level spells are proving useful as utility and effect spells. If nothing else, all of these characters’ abilities are building and improving. Not so for poor Jozan. Second only to his spell list, his Turn Undead ability is one of his two class features; and what is it getting him? Nothing.
Jozan’s a 16th level Cleric. He’s also got a Charisma of 12. Let’s be nice to the poor boy, and give him an Amulet of Undead Turning, and let’s assume he rolls a natural 20 on his Turn Undead check. He can turn an undead of up to 23 hit dice, by the table, with that kind of check. Now, consider that a 24 hit dice zombie is CR 6. That’s right, the undead that he was facing ten levels ago are still not turnable from his perspective. Now let’s look at things in a bit more typical light.
Are you likely to face CR 6 creatures at character level 16 very often? No, I didn’t think so. You’re more likely to face four Colossal Zombies (A CR 16 encounter). A single Colossal Zombie has forty-eight hit dice. So, really, there’s no point wasting a turn trying to turn one of those, let alone four. Or, maybe, a lone Nightwalker (CR 16). That’s 21 hit dice – so you might be able to turn it, provided you have an Amulet of Undead Turning, and roll a 13 or better. Good luck trying to destroy the Nightwalker, since you need to be level 42 before you can do that. And Skeletons? You’ll be able to fight four Gargantuan skeletons a day at level 7, but you’re not going to be able to turn them until level 8 – with a maximum Turning roll and an Amulet of Undead Turning. Normally, you’re waiting until level 12. Colossal Skeletons are out of your reach (even with the Amulet) until level 24.
Without continuing to the point of ridiculousness, compare these values to the Famine Spirit, Ragewind, Death Knight, and the Effigy from the Monster Manual 2. You’ll see the same trend.
It just gets worse when we go to Epic Levels. Let’s look at the Atropal, which has 66 hit dice (at CR 30). Yeah, that’s right, you can’t turn this thing until level 58 at least. Demiliches are immune to turning outright. Hunefer are a 50-hit dice undead with a CR of 25 (so that’s level 42 before you can even try to turn it). The Lavawight is a bit more acceptable – it’s only got 32 hit dice compared to its CR of 23. So you can turn it on a maximum turning check with an Amulet of Undead Turning.
The core of the problem is hit dice inflation. Undead as a type is a very ‘lossy’ hit dice, for two significant reasons; one, it provides the worst base attack bonus, and only one good saving throw (Will). Two, without a Constitution score, an undead can only rely on its hit dice for hit points, and gains nothing extra from Constitution – making them frail for their hit dice. Consider the Huge Zombie, with 24 hit dice, has only 159 hit points. Now consider that a 24-hit dice Dwarf Fighter, with a Constitution of 15 (not unreasonable), has 180 hit points. And that’s without magical items – a 24th level Dwarven Fighter could surely afford a +6 Constitution Item, and maybe even a Wish or two to receive a total of 300 hit points total. The solution is fairly simple – give it lots of hit dice.
Now, there’s also the flip-side of this coin. Creatures like the Allip, Bodak, and the Devourer all have very low hit dice compared to their CR (at least, compared to the aforementioned undead). The problem there is that these creatures all possess amazingly potent abilities for their CR – Bodaks have an instant-death gaze attack, Allips drain wisdom and render people unable to act, and Devourers are able to make a save-or-die Fortitude save effect, at will. These creatures were made with the understanding that, as terrifyingly powerful as they were, there would Always Be A Cleric On Hand who could turn them, and thereby make them less difficult to face. The unfortunate side-effect of this is that fights with these creatures are either extremely easy (a high-charisma cleric turns them in the first round and the party just spend their time kicking the crap out of it), or dreadfully hard (a low-charisma cleric fails to turn the creature and it goes to town on the party).
So, we have the problem that Turn Undead goes off a table (bad), can’t affect most things (bad), and is a vital part of making some things not immensely deadly (very bad).
Well, how to fix it? I propose the following solution. D&D has the long-standing rule of 10 + ½ hit dice + Key ability modifier for special abilities. I’d be hard-pressed to call a cleric’s Turn Undead ability anything but a special ability. Therefore, I’d consider Turn Undead to be a 30-foot spread (it is currently a burst) that forces all undead in its area to make a Fortitude saving throw against a DC of 10 + ½ the cleric’s level + the cleric’s Charisma modifier. If an undead fails its saving throw by 10 or more, it is Destroyed, or Commanded. A cleric can Turn or Rebuke a number of undead equal to his Cleric level + his Charisma modifier.
Alternately, in the above system, make it a Will save. This makes Undead much more likely to succeed, as their Will saving throw is almost always their best.
Meanwhile, if you prefer to roll for such things, consider the system of d20 roll + ½ the cleric’s hit dice + the cleric’s Charisma modifier, instead. This introduces an element of randomness, and makes it less like a spell.
That being done, Turning Undead just got a lot simpler. A Jozan, at 3rd level would have turn at a DC of 12; not great, but not terrible – and an Allip has a 40% chance of failing that saving throw. Not fantastic, but it’s good enough. At level 30, the base DC is now 25 + Jozan’s Charisma modifier, which could be (easily) +8. If using the Will save variant, that’s not going to have an Atropal scared (Will save +43), but with the Atropal’s +22 Fortitude Save, it has only a 50% chance to succeed. If Jozan has that aforementioned Amulet of Undead Turning, the Atropal has a 60% to fail. Some may rail against the idea of an Epic undead being turnable, but it’s only turnable by an Epic cleric. Of course, when we factor in the Turn Resistance (see below), the Atropal has a +42 to its Fortitude Save… so, really, is it that overpowered?
This does mean that some things have to be changed, mechanically, however.
Turn Resistance: Turn Resistance is now applied as a Resistance Bonus to all saving throws against Turning attempts.
Feats involving Turning from Defenders of the Faith: Divine Cleansing, Divine Might, Divine Resistance, Divine Shield, Divine Vengeance, and Divine Vigor all remain the same. However, Empower Turning, Heighten Turning, and Quicken Turning all require alterations.
EMPOWER TURNING [Special]
You are able to turn or rebuke a greater number of weaker creatures.
Prerequisites: Ability to turn or rebuke, Charisma 13+, Extra Turning
Benefit: You may choose to reduce the DC of a Turning or Rebuking attempt by 2, and for reach reduction, you gain a bonus to the number of undead affected of +1.
Note: This replaces the feat ‘Empower Turning’ from Defenders of the Faith.
HEIGHTEN TURNING [Special]
You are able to more powerfully turn or rebuke an individual creature.
Prerequisites: Cha 13+, Extra Turning
Benefit: You may make a Turning attempt as a targeted ability against a single target. The saving throw DC against this Turning attempt is +2 higher.
Note: This replaces the feat ‘Heighten Turning’ from Defenders of the Faith.
QUICKEN TURNING [Special]
You may make a turning attempt as a free action.
Prerequisites: Ability to Turn or Rebuke, Extra Turning, Cha 13+
Benefit: You can turn undead as a free action once a round, but the DC for your turning attempt suffers a –4 penalty.
Note: This replaces the feat ‘Quicken Turning’ from Defenders of the Faith.
Turning and Rebuking other creatures: The Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Plant domains all grant the ability to turn elemental creatures. This would follow the same formula as normal turning (and the same feats could apply). Bear in mind that the poor fellow who chose the Plant domain had better be prepared for a long, boring, string of failed attempts, as Plants have a good Fortitude save and (usually) a good Constitution.
Amulet of Undead Turning: The ability granted by this amulet stays the same, it just works differently – a cleric 4 levels higher has DCs that are higher by 2, and can turn 4 more undead than normal.
Paladins: Paladins’ turning is ‘as a cleric 2 levels lower’. Which is fine – it just means the Paladin’s DCs are 1 lower and he can turn 2 fewer undead at a time.
With the above alterations in play, you may find Clerics focusing a bit more on their Charisma (and Paladins actually bothering to Turn Undead). Just make sure you find a place where you think the system works, and use it. If this makes Turning Undead too powerful – well, be careful and feel free to junk it.
The other thing to note is that this article is, I believe, five years old. This means I find myself fairly forgiven for the complete wuss-out conclusion, and the lack of clear decisions.
Most significantly, I know full well that the Cleric is already good enough without needing something to make him 'better' in a strict sense. But it has always bothered me that this class feature - even if it the class that gets it doesn't need it - is so fundamentally bad at what it seems to be there to do.
Hi!
This appeared at rpg.net some months ago. I thought it was well thought out and addresses some of the problems.
I have pasted below the post in full.
Primarch
In 3rd Edition Dungeons and Dragons, there is one overlying rule for the construction of mechanics. If you cannot construct it with a formula, you shouldn’t construct it. This rule has been foolishly disregarded with regards to Turning Undead, which seems to cling to an old table system. The most significant problem with this is that the table is flawed.
Consider the situation above. Tordek, Lidda, Mialee, and Jozan are all 16th-level characters (Fighter, rogue, wizard and cleric, respectively). Tordek’s class features (lots of feats) all coincide to help him in his party role, and are all useful, even at this level. The Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe) he took at first level is still useful. Lidda’s sneak attacks and skill points are still proving useful, as is her Uncanny Dodge. Mialee’s lower level spells are proving useful as utility and effect spells. If nothing else, all of these characters’ abilities are building and improving. Not so for poor Jozan. Second only to his spell list, his Turn Undead ability is one of his two class features; and what is it getting him? Nothing.
Jozan’s a 16th level Cleric. He’s also got a Charisma of 12. Let’s be nice to the poor boy, and give him an Amulet of Undead Turning, and let’s assume he rolls a natural 20 on his Turn Undead check. He can turn an undead of up to 23 hit dice, by the table, with that kind of check. Now, consider that a 24 hit dice zombie is CR 6. That’s right, the undead that he was facing ten levels ago are still not turnable from his perspective. Now let’s look at things in a bit more typical light.
Are you likely to face CR 6 creatures at character level 16 very often? No, I didn’t think so. You’re more likely to face four Colossal Zombies (A CR 16 encounter). A single Colossal Zombie has forty-eight hit dice. So, really, there’s no point wasting a turn trying to turn one of those, let alone four. Or, maybe, a lone Nightwalker (CR 16). That’s 21 hit dice – so you might be able to turn it, provided you have an Amulet of Undead Turning, and roll a 13 or better. Good luck trying to destroy the Nightwalker, since you need to be level 42 before you can do that. And Skeletons? You’ll be able to fight four Gargantuan skeletons a day at level 7, but you’re not going to be able to turn them until level 8 – with a maximum Turning roll and an Amulet of Undead Turning. Normally, you’re waiting until level 12. Colossal Skeletons are out of your reach (even with the Amulet) until level 24.
Without continuing to the point of ridiculousness, compare these values to the Famine Spirit, Ragewind, Death Knight, and the Effigy from the Monster Manual 2. You’ll see the same trend.
It just gets worse when we go to Epic Levels. Let’s look at the Atropal, which has 66 hit dice (at CR 30). Yeah, that’s right, you can’t turn this thing until level 58 at least. Demiliches are immune to turning outright. Hunefer are a 50-hit dice undead with a CR of 25 (so that’s level 42 before you can even try to turn it). The Lavawight is a bit more acceptable – it’s only got 32 hit dice compared to its CR of 23. So you can turn it on a maximum turning check with an Amulet of Undead Turning.
The core of the problem is hit dice inflation. Undead as a type is a very ‘lossy’ hit dice, for two significant reasons; one, it provides the worst base attack bonus, and only one good saving throw (Will). Two, without a Constitution score, an undead can only rely on its hit dice for hit points, and gains nothing extra from Constitution – making them frail for their hit dice. Consider the Huge Zombie, with 24 hit dice, has only 159 hit points. Now consider that a 24-hit dice Dwarf Fighter, with a Constitution of 15 (not unreasonable), has 180 hit points. And that’s without magical items – a 24th level Dwarven Fighter could surely afford a +6 Constitution Item, and maybe even a Wish or two to receive a total of 300 hit points total. The solution is fairly simple – give it lots of hit dice.
Now, there’s also the flip-side of this coin. Creatures like the Allip, Bodak, and the Devourer all have very low hit dice compared to their CR (at least, compared to the aforementioned undead). The problem there is that these creatures all possess amazingly potent abilities for their CR – Bodaks have an instant-death gaze attack, Allips drain wisdom and render people unable to act, and Devourers are able to make a save-or-die Fortitude save effect, at will. These creatures were made with the understanding that, as terrifyingly powerful as they were, there would Always Be A Cleric On Hand who could turn them, and thereby make them less difficult to face. The unfortunate side-effect of this is that fights with these creatures are either extremely easy (a high-charisma cleric turns them in the first round and the party just spend their time kicking the crap out of it), or dreadfully hard (a low-charisma cleric fails to turn the creature and it goes to town on the party).
So, we have the problem that Turn Undead goes off a table (bad), can’t affect most things (bad), and is a vital part of making some things not immensely deadly (very bad).
Well, how to fix it? I propose the following solution. D&D has the long-standing rule of 10 + ½ hit dice + Key ability modifier for special abilities. I’d be hard-pressed to call a cleric’s Turn Undead ability anything but a special ability. Therefore, I’d consider Turn Undead to be a 30-foot spread (it is currently a burst) that forces all undead in its area to make a Fortitude saving throw against a DC of 10 + ½ the cleric’s level + the cleric’s Charisma modifier. If an undead fails its saving throw by 10 or more, it is Destroyed, or Commanded. A cleric can Turn or Rebuke a number of undead equal to his Cleric level + his Charisma modifier.
Alternately, in the above system, make it a Will save. This makes Undead much more likely to succeed, as their Will saving throw is almost always their best.
Meanwhile, if you prefer to roll for such things, consider the system of d20 roll + ½ the cleric’s hit dice + the cleric’s Charisma modifier, instead. This introduces an element of randomness, and makes it less like a spell.
That being done, Turning Undead just got a lot simpler. A Jozan, at 3rd level would have turn at a DC of 12; not great, but not terrible – and an Allip has a 40% chance of failing that saving throw. Not fantastic, but it’s good enough. At level 30, the base DC is now 25 + Jozan’s Charisma modifier, which could be (easily) +8. If using the Will save variant, that’s not going to have an Atropal scared (Will save +43), but with the Atropal’s +22 Fortitude Save, it has only a 50% chance to succeed. If Jozan has that aforementioned Amulet of Undead Turning, the Atropal has a 60% to fail. Some may rail against the idea of an Epic undead being turnable, but it’s only turnable by an Epic cleric. Of course, when we factor in the Turn Resistance (see below), the Atropal has a +42 to its Fortitude Save… so, really, is it that overpowered?
This does mean that some things have to be changed, mechanically, however.
Turn Resistance: Turn Resistance is now applied as a Resistance Bonus to all saving throws against Turning attempts.
Feats involving Turning from Defenders of the Faith: Divine Cleansing, Divine Might, Divine Resistance, Divine Shield, Divine Vengeance, and Divine Vigor all remain the same. However, Empower Turning, Heighten Turning, and Quicken Turning all require alterations.
EMPOWER TURNING [Special]
You are able to turn or rebuke a greater number of weaker creatures.
Prerequisites: Ability to turn or rebuke, Charisma 13+, Extra Turning
Benefit: You may choose to reduce the DC of a Turning or Rebuking attempt by 2, and for reach reduction, you gain a bonus to the number of undead affected of +1.
Note: This replaces the feat ‘Empower Turning’ from Defenders of the Faith.
HEIGHTEN TURNING [Special]
You are able to more powerfully turn or rebuke an individual creature.
Prerequisites: Cha 13+, Extra Turning
Benefit: You may make a Turning attempt as a targeted ability against a single target. The saving throw DC against this Turning attempt is +2 higher.
Note: This replaces the feat ‘Heighten Turning’ from Defenders of the Faith.
QUICKEN TURNING [Special]
You may make a turning attempt as a free action.
Prerequisites: Ability to Turn or Rebuke, Extra Turning, Cha 13+
Benefit: You can turn undead as a free action once a round, but the DC for your turning attempt suffers a –4 penalty.
Note: This replaces the feat ‘Quicken Turning’ from Defenders of the Faith.
Turning and Rebuking other creatures: The Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Plant domains all grant the ability to turn elemental creatures. This would follow the same formula as normal turning (and the same feats could apply). Bear in mind that the poor fellow who chose the Plant domain had better be prepared for a long, boring, string of failed attempts, as Plants have a good Fortitude save and (usually) a good Constitution.
Amulet of Undead Turning: The ability granted by this amulet stays the same, it just works differently – a cleric 4 levels higher has DCs that are higher by 2, and can turn 4 more undead than normal.
Paladins: Paladins’ turning is ‘as a cleric 2 levels lower’. Which is fine – it just means the Paladin’s DCs are 1 lower and he can turn 2 fewer undead at a time.
With the above alterations in play, you may find Clerics focusing a bit more on their Charisma (and Paladins actually bothering to Turn Undead). Just make sure you find a place where you think the system works, and use it. If this makes Turning Undead too powerful – well, be careful and feel free to junk it.
The other thing to note is that this article is, I believe, five years old. This means I find myself fairly forgiven for the complete wuss-out conclusion, and the lack of clear decisions.
Most significantly, I know full well that the Cleric is already good enough without needing something to make him 'better' in a strict sense. But it has always bothered me that this class feature - even if it the class that gets it doesn't need it - is so fundamentally bad at what it seems to be there to do.
re
I don't mind the turn undead rules. What I did mind was the creation of classes like the Eye of Horus Re and Radiant Servant of Pelor. Those classes destroy undead adventures. Given the right gear and feats, they can use Greater Turning on your on the most undead antagonists in a given adventure completely destroying the challenge of an undead adventure.
Whoever decided to give Greater Turning out like candy was a fool. I've toned those classes down. Otherwise, I like the turn undead mechanic. Though I must agree that turning a CR 5 zombie is more difficult than turning a CR 12 vampire. That is nonsensical. I guess a DM could give zombies a turn vulnerability since they are weak, inanimate undead to make the turn undead rules more sensible.
I don't mind the turn undead rules. What I did mind was the creation of classes like the Eye of Horus Re and Radiant Servant of Pelor. Those classes destroy undead adventures. Given the right gear and feats, they can use Greater Turning on your on the most undead antagonists in a given adventure completely destroying the challenge of an undead adventure.
Whoever decided to give Greater Turning out like candy was a fool. I've toned those classes down. Otherwise, I like the turn undead mechanic. Though I must agree that turning a CR 5 zombie is more difficult than turning a CR 12 vampire. That is nonsensical. I guess a DM could give zombies a turn vulnerability since they are weak, inanimate undead to make the turn undead rules more sensible.
Kristian Serrano
Explorer
I use the Complete Divine variant for Turning Undead, except I add and undead creature's Turn Resistance as a bonus to the saving throws.
Mystery Man
First Post
primarchone said:
You realize that actually took up more time and space than the actual turn undead rules right?
el-remmen
Moderator Emeritus
Seems about right to me. . .what's the problem? You want characters to be able to turn colossal and gargantuan creatures easily?
As far as I'm concerned, the cleric in a 16th level party should have to be lucky to turn a CR 16 undead creature meant to take on the party by itself.
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