Turning Undead...design philosophy

[satori01]

I am going to go on the record and say Turn Undead has always sucked. Be it the charts from 1E, to the god awful mechanic of 3E. In 4e it seemed an afterthought all together.

Turning has always seemed well suited to:

1- bring the game to a halt as rules are looked up.

2-with a single roll of the dice, have a chance to kill everything on the board with a toss of the carved polyhedrals. Many players have experienced a cleric in an undead heavy adventure get hot with their turn checks and run the table.

3-be a power that also frequently has no chance of effect.

4-Have flavor draining mechanics.

What can be done so finally Turn Undead is worthy of the iconic image of the truly holy man holding off a creature of pure evil throught strength of will and faith, if even only for a few seconds?

I would have turning not outright destroy undead or demons, but stun. limit the effect to a single creature, and make the turn mechanic be an opposed check.
I would also allow for level based advancement of Turn by folding in spells like Exorcisim, Detect Evil as turn powers....after all turning has evolved more into a manifestation of divine power with a multitude of options and effects.

I have always felt that spells like Bless would better fit thematically as Turn/Faith powers than as spells. This allows for an individual flavor to be tailored for the Turn Mechanic of different classes like Clerics vs Paladins.

 

[Li Shenron]

I can think of a lot of possible house rules for Turn Undead, but none of them will really "solve" it.

Nevertheless, I will accept whatever reasonable mechanic they come up with in 5e, but I really really hope that:

1) Turn Undead is still in the game

2) Turn Undead is not reduced to dealing damage

 

[Lanefan]

The 1e version works just fine - roll a d20, DM checks a table which should, for ease of reference, be on the back of her DM screen along with some other often-used tables (combat matrix, saving throw table, etc.)

I agree the threshold level for outright destroy should be higher, but otherwise it's never posed a problem for me or my players over the very long haul. The only change I've made to the table is to add a few more categories of undead for variety.

Keep in mind also that there is - or should be - some risk involved; on a badly failed turn the Cleric gets the undead's complete attention...

Lanefan

 

[Incenjucar]

Meh. Make it a radiant attack that dazes or pushes or whatever if something is vulnerable to radiant and call it a day.

 

[FireLance]

IMO, the solution to (1) is to treat turn undead as just another attack power, spell or ability. If the "math" works, that should take care of (3), too.

The solution to (2) might be to limit its uses per day or to silo it with other, equally useful Divine abilities such as healing.

As for (4), the basic effect might be that the target cannot approach within a certain distance of the cleric on a hit/failed save for 1 round (and if it starts its turn there, it must move out). On a miss/successful save, the target can approach, but takes a penalty to attack rolls. The cleric can sustain the effect as a standard action, repeating the attack roll (or the target rerolling its saving throw) each round. This basic effect can be improved through feats, optional class abilities or other character customization choices to affect multiple targets (possibly with an attack roll penalty/saving throw bonus) to deal damage on a successful attack roll/failed saving throw, or outright destroy weak targets.

 

[Guest 85555]

The 1e version works just fine - roll a d20, DM checks a table which should, for ease of reference, be on the back of her DM screen along with some other often-used tables (combat matrix, saving throw table, etc.)

I agree the threshold level for outright destroy should be higher, but otherwise it's never posed a problem for me or my players over the very long haul. The only change I've made to the table is to add a few more categories of undead for variety.

Keep in mind also that there is - or should be - some risk involved; on a badly failed turn the Cleric gets the undead's complete attention...

Lanefan

I agree. This was much easier than the convoluted solution in 3E. As long as you had a GM screen, very easy to manage (and GM screens with these charts were the assumption when I played AD&D (which is why GM screens came in so many modules, supplements, campaign books, etc).

 

[DMBrendon]

I recall turning working well in Basic D&D, AD&D 2E and 3.0/5, both from a flavor and mechanical perspective. I'm not sure what you're on about. It was a bit off in 4E though.

 

[mkill]

I never understood why Turn undead isn't just a spell. What's so horribly different about it that it doesn't fit the same framework as Heal, Summon Monster, Gate, Flame Strike, Animate Dead...

 

[howandwhy99]

I like the below:
Cone effect, at will per round, affecting everything, but specifically inimical to undead, demons, devils, and other negative energy powered constructs (e.g. anti-paladins).

Like spell casting the effect is successful (tho this depends on prior actions), but the resulting power level is determined by a 2d6 die roll, twice (usually) if multiple targets.

Some things may optionally save versus Para/Poison/Death magic, if affected. This is also done each round. The option depends upon Intelligence, possession, etc.

 

[SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS]

If you have to check a table it is not fine... Turn undead is simple to implement and shouldn't be different from a spell as it is basically fear that works only on undead.

The 1e version works just fine - roll a d20, DM checks a table which should, for ease of reference, be on the back of her DM screen along with some other often-used tables (combat matrix, saving throw table, etc.)

I agree the threshold level for outright destroy should be higher, but otherwise it's never posed a problem for me or my players over the very long haul. The only change I've made to the table is to add a few more categories of undead for variety.

Keep in mind also that there is - or should be - some risk involved; on a badly failed turn the Cleric gets the undead's complete attention...

Lanefan