Turning Undead...design philosophy

[SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS]

I recall turning working well in Basic D&D, AD&D 2E and 3.0/5, both from a flavor and mechanical perspective. I'm not sure what you're on about. It was a bit off in 4E though.

Well I think the other way, it work fine in 4e because is just other power but not in 2e and 3e (the ones I played) because uses a unique mechanic, particularly a mechanic that depends of a table.

 

[Fanaelialae]

In 4e it seemed an afterthought all together.

Not sure where that's coming from.

4e Turning was the first time I actually liked turning. There were no convoluted subsystems to remember, or tables to look up.

It was also very effective. Huge AoE, good damage, push and an immobilize. My only complaint about 4e turning would be that it was too good (a daily for less than the price of an encounter). You could even use alternate (divine) abilities in its place.

I hope that DDN Turning will KISS, and resemble that of 4e. There's no reason to overcomplicate a mechanic that only sees use now and then.

 

[Croesus]

I never understood why Turn undead isn't just a spell. What's so horribly different about it that it doesn't fit the same framework as Heal, Summon Monster, Gate, Flame Strike, Animate Dead...

I agree. Require the caster to concentrate every round on maintaining the turning effect and you end up with something very similar to what we see in various stories that use turning. No need for a separate ability or power.

 

[Ahnehnois]

This is another one of those things that PF got right. Make it the more generic "channel energy", give it some useful basic effects, and then add turning onto it. As for turning itself, make it damage and then have some kind of add-on for clerics that care about it to be able to really stop the undead in their tracks.

 

[Rhenny]

I think 4e has the best system for turning. It mimics spell use and it is easy to use. Push and Stun should be possible outcomes in addition to radiant damage.

 

[Hassassin]

This is another one of those things that PF got right. Make it the more generic "channel energy", give it some useful basic effects, and then add turning onto it. As for turning itself, make it damage and then have some kind of add-on for clerics that care about it to be able to really stop the undead in their tracks.

PF turning is the best I've seen. However, it's annoying that you sacrifice healing, and that the "real" turning effect is often* worse than just channeling damage.

*Ok, against weak undead mainly. But strong ones get rerolls to fleeing.

 

[RHGreen]

It should be an attack that causes hit damage and adds a condition (perhaps versus save) (defender like) that causes large damage if the undead does not flee.

 

[boredgremlin]

I'd do it as an emanation that caused 1d4 damage per caster level to undead and outsiders in the area and holds the creatures back from advancing on the caster unless they make a willpower save.

Maybe let the cleric maintain the holding off effect round to round with concentration. That way you can get the dramatic movie/story moments of a priest holding a vampire at bay while trading insults or trying to interrogate it.

I like that flavor of a holy man holding evil at bay just by his faith while the monster struggles to overcome the power and eat the priest and or innocents he is sheltering. So a mechanic IMO should be able to create that.

 

[Mercule]

I never understood why Turn undead isn't just a spell. What's so horribly different about it that it doesn't fit the same framework as Heal, Summon Monster, Gate, Flame Strike, Animate Dead...

I think it was supposed to represent the classic man of faith scaring off vampires because they are an unholy blight. For that, it works well enough. Once you veer into "channeling positive/negative energy", it gets pretty dumb, pretty quick.

I would be fine with any of three options I can think of:
1) Everyone gets turn/rebuke undead. The same mechanics apply across the board and there are no alternate ways to use the "charge".
2) Turn/rebuke undead becomes a spell, as you suggest. It's just another divine miracle. Move on with your day.
3) Each deity grants a special power. All clerics of that deity get the same power (or a one-time choice from a very short list specific to each deity). Turn/rebuke undead is just one possibility and is no more/less common than smiting, insta-healing, or some other power.

Note that, in no case, am I in favor of a general channel energy ability.

 

[Ahnehnois]

PF turning is the best I've seen. However, it's annoying that you sacrifice healing

Any daily use-limited abilities have that kind of problem; every spell you cast that isn't healing sacrifices healing. This is a problem on a lot of levels. Hopefully we can get off of that use per time paradigm.

Note that, in no case, am I in favor of a general channel energy ability.

I don't get it. Why the hate? I'd be quite happy to give all the spellcasting classes generic, non-Vancian abilities like this while retaining their original spellcasting. In some ways, it's just a starting point for this:

Each deity grants a special power. All clerics of that deity get the same power (or a one-time choice from a very short list specific to each deity). Turn/rebuke undead is just one possibility and is no more/less common than smiting, insta-healing, or some other power.