Tweaking Fortification and Vorpal

[Synchronicity]

Alrighty. In the games of D&D I've played in and run under 3.0 and 3.5 edition D&D, neither of these abilities has sat well with me. Fortification, because heavy fortification utterly nullifies such a core ability as the rogue's sneak attack (making it practically de rigueur at high levels for any PC or powerful NPC worth their salt); Vorpal, because I dislike the idea of the BBEG walking up to the PC's and saying "He attacks. Oh. You die.", or vice versa. At least instant death effects allow a save. Doesn't exactly have that epic battle, triumphing over a powerful foe at great personal risk feeling when the fighter gets lucky on his first hit and the guy's head falls off. So. Due to these misgivings, and with some help from a few friends of mine, I've come up with alternative ways of working the abilities. I'd like your thoughts on them.

Fortification: Fortification is now a +1 to +5 market value ability. For each point of fortification you possess, the following occurs:
1) 1 die of sneak attack damage is negated per point of fortification.
2) The threat range of a weapon striking you is reduced by 1 per point of fortification. A natural 20 is always a threat, regardless of the amount of fortification you possess. [Possible extra to this: If you have reduced a weapon's threat range to 'natural 20', additional points of fortification reduce the weapon's critical multiplier, to a minimum of x2. Thoughts on the inclusion/exclusion of this extra?]
3) The DC of an attack that functions only if the target can be criticaled/sneak attacked is reduced by 1 per point of fortification. (Example: An assassin's death attack, a Devastating Critical, and under my changes, a Vorpal attack.)

Vorpal: When a critical hit is confirmed with a vorpal weapon, the target must make a Fortitude save (DC= Damage dealt by the critical hit) or die instantly. [Possible change to this: DC=10+Damage dealt by the critical hit]. Market Price Increase: +??? [Thoughts on how expensive this altered version of vorpal should be?]

So, there's my alterations. Any thoughts on how they stand? Balance issues?

Cheers,
Synchronicity.

 

[Darklone]

Houserules?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Houserules

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[Synchronicity]

Thankee!

Must remember...more sleep, less caffine when posting topics!

 

[HellHound]

I like the fortification rebuild. VERY much. Keeps rogues in the running which is nice (although in my all-rogue campaign it is interesting to see how combat dynamics change when they encounter the rare undead or construct... especially constructs as most have hardness, and the rogues can't break through the hardness, let alone deal any real damage - ie: combat changes from a dancing / tumbling flank-machine to a well-oiled fleeing machine)

Sorry, but no feedback yet on the vorpal.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I also really like the second effect of Fortification - the reduction to the crit multiplier.

 

[Agamemnon]

Blanket immunities are exceedingly dangerous abilities, and I don't think there is one more so than immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks. Things like immunity to fire or not needing to breathe usually require some effort to abuse them (with possibly devastating results) but an immunity to critical hits is something that's automatically in effect and is useful against practically any party.

In other words, fortification is damn powerful and a nerfed version is something that I like to see. Same deal with Vorpal, really. Especially due to the massively anticlimactic "one hit, one kill" battles it turns many confrontations into.

 

[Arkhandus]

I kinda like your revisions..... As for my 2 cp, the optional part you mention for Fortification makes sense to me, aye, and the Vorpal revision should probably have a DC equal to damage dealt, and mention in the description that it counts as a death effect perhaps? That meaning that someone can use Death Ward or something against it in case the DC gets absurdly high (raging, power-attacking, magic-buffed half-orc barbarian anyone?). As for the Vorpal market price modifier, I suggest making it +1 with an additional market price modifier equal to the weapon's base critical damage multiplier (that is, before adjustments from feats and junk, so adding Vorpal to most weapons is a +3 equivalent ability, while adding it to a greataxe or the ilk is +4, and adding it to a scythe or pick and their ilk would be +5 equivalent).


Hrmm....lessee...... Typical 15th-level half-orc barbarian, raging, somewhat-power attacking, without any magical items or effects active besides their weapon, a +5 vorpal scythe....on an "average" critical hit that'd deal..... 6+6+6+6 (average base damage) +15+15+15+15 (strength, two-handed weapon) +5+5+5+5 (enhancement) +5+5+5+5 (power attack) = 124 damage, Fortitude save DC 124 or die instantly? Hrmm, that'd be one dead great wyrm prismatic dragon or elder titan, eh? Well, not much difference from standard Vorpal there, so maybe make the DC 1/2 or 1/3 the damage dealt or something? *curses raging, power-attacking half-orc barbarians with their rampant might*

 

[Kyamsil]

I like the changes proposed to the fortification ability. Will check with my fellow players and the other DM to see if we can playtest it and see if it works better. I would say that reducing the multiplier when it gets to natural 20 is also a very good idea, and something that would balance it more as I see it. That way, the ability at +1 hurts equally the longsword wielding guy as the orc barbarian with greataxe.

About the vorpal ability I like the way it is "nerfed" and the pricing for the ability that Arkhandus proposed seems reasonable to me: higher multiplier=more damage on a crit=more dangerous vorpal=pricier vorpal. As the vorpal ability only works on a natural 20 there is no reason to get it pricier the higher the threat range.

But as proven by Arkhandus it would hardly matter as the DC can get so high with so much ease. I would propose a change to the way the DC is calculated. A Fortitude save with a DC of 15+2 for each 10 points of damage of the critical (1-10: 15, 11-20:17,21-30:19, 31-40:21....) seems more reasonable to me. It is scalable but is not skyrocketing so. That half-orc of the example and his 124 damage would be DC 39 save... something that would likely not kill outright some epic creatures... well, then there is the issue of the sheer damage the critical caused, chances of dying because of massive damage... but that's another history...

Consider this house rule stolen

 

[Synchronicity]

Wow, I'm really impressed with the quality of feedback thus far! You guys are great! It seems a general consensus that the crit multiplier reduction effect of fortification is approved of, so I think that's going to be included when I use it next. It makes sense too, which I always like. As for the Vorpal; I agree that the sheer damage dealing capability of raging, sometimes frenzying, orc or half-orc barbarians is pretty damn insane. I like what you say, Kyamsil, about the alternative method of calculating the save; that'd definitely make it less overpowered. And Arkhandus, your ideas on costing vorpal seem both balanced and logical. However, I'd rather not turn Vorpal into a 'death effect'; well, not if I'm using Kyamsil's ideas on vorpal, at any rate. I just don't see the ability to sever heads being a 'death effect'; it's more that it's really, really sharp. Of course, if you were using my original idea on vorpal as DC equalling damage, then there's a case for making it less silly by labelling it a death effect and allowing death ward to protect against it. Alrighty, to clarify, revised versions of fortification and vorpal are now:


Fortification: Fortification is now a +1 to +5 market value ability. For each point of fortification you possess, the following occurs:
1) 1 die of sneak attack damage is negated per point of fortification.
2) The threat range of a weapon striking you is reduced by 1 per point of fortification. A natural 20 is always a threat, regardless of the amount of fortification you possess. If you have reduced a weapon's threat range to 'natural 20', additional points of fortification reduce the weapon's critical multiplier, to a minimum of x2.
3) The DC of an attack that functions only if the target can be criticaled/sneak attacked is reduced by 1 per point of fortification. (Example: An assassin's death attack, a Devastating Critical, and if using revised Vorpal as below, a Vorpal attack.)

Vorpal: When a natural 20 to hit is confirmed as a critical hit with a vorpal weapon, the target must make a Fortitude save (DC= 15+2 per 10 points of damage caused by the critical hit) or die instantly. Market Price Increase: Vorpal is a +3 ability for a weapon with a critical multiplier of x2, a +4 ability for a weapon with a critical multiplier of x3, and a +5 ability for a weapon with a critical multiplier of x4.

Yay! It seems I now have a version of both powers that I would consider 'finished'. If anyone else has thoughts which contradict this belief, please, chip in! For the moment, though, I'm happy with what they've been sorted out to be. I think fortification is definitely sorted, and vorpal seems to be. I might post some thoughts after the fact once I've had a chance to use the newly revised versions in a game, and I'd appreciate any similar feedback anyone else using them has to offer. Thanks guys! This has been really helpful!

Cheers,
Synchronicity

 

[Kyamsil]

Wonderful! I like how those two special qualities are described now. I like them both and most likely I will use them in my own campaign.

The only thing I have to add is that the vorpal ability only works on a natural 20, not on any critical. At least that's the way it does in the DMG. If you wanted for it to work on this toned down version on any critical roll other than a 20 I think you should rework the cost and add +1 more to its value for weapons of 19-20 threat range and +2 for those of 18-20. Watch out for abuse of this quality by having Improved Critical, Power Critical and any other related feats. Personally I will use them in my campaign with the vorpal only working on a natural 20 to prevent abuse.