TWF without extra attacks

[ainbimagh]

Well.. from a purely semantic standpoint (which most rules are)

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way.

Since you have a choice (note: "you can get one extra") and you decide to decline this choice, then you are not "Fighting this way". And would not be subject to the penalties to offhand attacks.

 

[interwyrm]

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way.

If "when you fight this way" refers to "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand", then regardless of whether or not you take an extra attack, you suffer penalties if you are 'wielding' two weapons.


If "when you fight this way" refers to "you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon", then if you are wielding two weapons but do not take an extra attack, you do not take penalties.

Dig?

 

[The_Ditto]

I see.

So, what's the main argument to support the "you get penalties even if you don't get an extra attack"?

I'd look at it this way ...

Holding Torch in left hand, holding Long sword in right.
You have a BaB that grants 4 attacks.

Attack with Long Sword 4 times - any penalties? No - because you are not "wielding" the torch, just holding it .. Two Weapon fighting doesn't enter the picture.

Now, replace the Torch with a Dagger and ask the same question ... you're not attacking with the dagger, so again, no TWF issues arise .. so yeah, 4 attacks with Long Sword, no penalties .

Finally, we want to attack twice with Long sword and twice with Dagger ... I'm not honestly sure if any rules clearly lay this out ... but I'd see no reason to impose penalties ... it doesn't seem to be really different to me in any case, and you've obviously given up using your left hand for something (arguably) more useful - such as shield, two handed fighting, or holding that torch so you could see ...

 

[Goldmoon]

I played a Bard that fought with a rapier and a whip. I weilded them both but only attacked with one in any given round. The DM said I had no penalties this way. What if I had improved trip and used the whip to trip someone? Could I make a raiper attack against the opponent I just tripped without penalty?

 

[mvincent]

This is subject to debate, but official publications* can help if you are undecided.

From the Rules of the Game:
"If, after you made two-weapon attacks with your sword and torch, a foe later provokes an attack of opportunity from you that same round, you can strike that foe with your longsword with no two-weapon penalty at all. (You also can use just the torch, also with no two-weapon penalty, though you still take the -4 penalty for an off-hand attack; you also still take the -4 penalty for an improvised weapon for a total penalty of -8.)"

This indicates that one can be considered 'wielding' (i.e. threatening) with an off-hand weapon without needing to take TWF'ing penalties.

From the 3.5 FAQ:
"There’s nothing inherent in the full attack action that
requires all the attacks to be made as the same kind of attack or
with the same kind of weapon.
A character with a base attack bonus of +6 or better holding
a longsword, for example, could make a melee attack with the
longsword (using his full base attack bonus), drop the
longsword (a free action), use Quick Draw to draw a dagger
(another free action), then throw the dagger (using his base
attack bonus –5). If the character had both hands free (for
instance, if he didn’t carry a light or heavy shield in his off
hand), he could even use Quick Draw to draw a bow (free
action), draw and nock an arrow (free action) and then shoot
the bow (using his base attack bonus –5).
This situation is actually improved if the melee weapon is a
two-handed weapon. A character can hold a two-handed
weapon in one hand; he just can’t attack with it while it’s held
like that. Thus, he wouldn’t even have to drop the weapon in
order to draw and throw the dagger. If Krusk the 6th-level
barbarian had Quick Draw, he could swing his greataxe (using
his full base attack bonus), then leave the axe in his off-hand
while drawing a javelin with his primary hand (free action), and
finally throw the javelin (using his base attack bonus –5). If
Krusk were drawing a ranged weapon that required two hands
to use (such as a bow), he’d have to drop his greataxe."

This indicates that you can pretty much freely switch between weapons.

Whether off-hand penalties are still used is also still subject to debate, but the core rules and the RotG (above) seem to indicate they are, while some FAQ examples seem to imply that they aren't. This is made worse because ambidexterity no longer exists in 3.5.

The most common compromise is to still impose the -4 off-hand penalty unless the wielder has the TWF'ing feat.

*Obligatory disclaimer: please consider this post (and all other similar posts) as being solely directed at those that find the official publications useful.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

As an adjunct to mvincent's last point, there's also a 3.0 FAQ entry regarding defending weapons, which seems to contradict at least the first 3.5 entry.

Q: Do you have to actively wield a weapon of defending to use its power? Or could you hold a longsword of defending in your left hand, not use it to attack (so you are not actually using the two weapons) and still wield a sword in your right hand without penalties? Or is the defending bonus considered part of the normal parrying that happens in the background?

A: Using a weapon of defending works just like the Expertise feat. (You have to use an attack or full attack action.) You can’t use the weapon like a shield; if you hold the weapon in your off hand and claim an Armor Class bonus for it, you take all the penalties for fighting with two weapons, even if you don’t actually attack with the weapon.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

There should be no debate:

SRD FUll Attack: If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

The only time you get the penalty for fighting with two weapons is when you want to gain the additional attack from TWF.

The part that is debatable is whether to apply 'off-hand' limitations to how much strength is applied to the damage roll...I personally HR that characters must be 'handed', but the RAW only refers to 'off-hand' in the TWF sections.

HR:

Spoiler

Handedness is determined by rolling a D20 for your right hand and a D8 for your left. The highest die determines your handidness. A tie results in free 'ambidexterity', which meant more in 3.0 than it does in 3.x

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

the RAW only refers to 'off-hand' in the TWF sections.

... and the glossary.

 

[mvincent]

As an adjunct to mvincent's last point, there's also a 3.0 FAQ entry regarding defending weapons, which seems to contradict at least the first 3.5 entry.

Correct. That ruling appears to be oddity (possibly meant only meant for Defending weapons). In all my research, I haven't seen a similar official example (or corroborating ruling) like it.

Of importance is that the 3.0 FAQ was written by Skip Williams (the Sage at the time). He was also the writer of the conflicting RotG passage above. It seems he either changed his mind, didn't think it through, intended it only for defending weapons, or re-wrote his stance on TWF'ing to coincide with 3.5. Either way, it seems safer to go with his more recent ruling.

 

[Sejs]

Can you use more than one weapon without getting extra attacks?

Yes, you can.

If yes, would you take any penalties?

You only take the TWF penalties if you gain the extra attack(s).

If you provoke an AoO (say for trying to sunder something), and in doing so your longsword gets disarmed.. but you then quick draw your dagger: you do not take the TWF penalties.

If you are holding a weapon in each hand, move 30' and make a single attack as a standard action: you do not take the TWF penalties.

If you are holding a weapon in each hand, have a BAB of +6/+1 or higher, make a full attack using Weapon A for your +6 attack and Weapon B for your +1 attack: you do not take the TWF penalties.

If you do not gain an extra attack(s) from TWF you do not take the TWF penalties. That's the long and short of it.