Two Cities of Brass?

[Nightfall]

I'm down with that Jeff. Besides, time and tide wait for no man. I know people will try to hit back with "Well what about this Bard's Gate being delayed?" If you look at the number of products that Necromancer is trying to put out, compared the low number that Rob had done, I'd say that Necromancer comes out ahead.

Besides, Necromancer's has been harkening back to first edition well before Kuntz was on board. Btw good post Lucifier.

 

[JohnRTroy]

Re: Re: Think you are missing a few areas.

I think a person should be judged on professionalism. And Mr Kuntz has shown zero professionalism concerning this. If he had a "beef" with it, it should be handled in private between all concerned parties, not aired in public by posting private emails he had with anyone. I get the insinuations he is attempting to imply, and frankly think he is reaching at straws. Clark Peterson has already indicated the City of Brass will not contain anything Rob has done in the past or talked about with Clark. That should be the end of it.

I've not seen him indicate any accusations that stuff was stolen, but I thought he was more or less angry about the name stealing.

And Gene isn't a potential "whistleblower" as you put it. Search around for some of his other posts here or anywhere, he seems to be always near controversy, similar to Mr Kuntz.

Not talking about Gene here, but Kuntz himself.

Not hypocritical at all. Lorraine Williams ran TSR into the ground. Gary Gygax is not the only one to speak out on this. It is fairly well known. It doesn't make her a better person, but then again, all we know from Gygax is what he has told us.

How is it not hypocritical. If you want to be hypothetical, do you have proof she was the one who did it?

Devils advocate.

I am a little annoyed people are focused on behavior and game design prowess over objective judgement. You guys are free to buy what you wanna buy, but let's not pretend it's for a "moral high ground" here.

What has Rob produced lately? The Maze series seemed to be the poorest received Necromancer Games products to date. The reviews are average or worse (not just here but other review boards as well).

Doesn't make it right what Necromancer Games did or will do. Again, you guys are judging Rob's game design ability--which may or may not be better or worse than the Necromancer people. However, that doesn't change the fact that, I believe, that Rob probably does have a legit grievance.

You are right. City of Brass does harken back to the old days of D&D. Right along with "First Edition feel." And I am sure that that is why Necromancer Games wanted to do City of Brass to begin with, because it is first edition AD&D.

Well then, I see through that.

Why? It happens all the time with companies (not just game companies either). A person is brought on board to do a project, they drop the ball or leave, and the project continues. Look at bands for example. Musicians come and go. They are replaced. The band doesn't change the name. It works along the same lines. Look at software developers. They come and go as well. The project continues. A software company doesn't rename the product just because the designer or developer leaves or is fired.

Yeah, but sometimes this gives them the right to sue, or companies to rip off the idea.

I don't think that's the case, but I do think that the least they can do is change the name. And since he first provided the ideas, even if they don't use them, he may have the right to sue.

In all honesty, I don't believe there will be two Citys of Brass. I don't think Rob will ever produce his. Look how long it has taken him to get Maze 4 out. (I don't think we will ever see Rob's book from Troll Lords either. They advertised it at the beginning of this year, and it still isn't out yet.)

Again, that's not the point here. It doesn't matter if Rob isn't good or timely. That shouldn't be a judgement factor as to if Necromancer is not behaving "above board".

And I don't think they should change the name. What better to invoke that First Edition feel than the name City of Brass? The book is about the City of Brass, why not call it that. Now if they could only get Dave Trampier to do the cover.

Well, unfortunately, they won't be getting my purchase unless they change the name. And no, it's not a Necromancer boycott, just that product is now tainted.

 

[Darrin Drader]

Count me in as being opposed to the name change idea.

The project existed before Rob dropped out. When he decided to leave or became too difficult to work with, or whatever, then the project goes on with a new developer. As long as the material he submitted previously isn't used, or he is adequately compensated for it, then I'm satisfied that the product will be "untainted."

If it is such a big deal, and suddenly Kuntz has the moral rights over a name that is public domain, maybe he should call his "Rob Kuntz's City of Brass."

I'm still in favor of shutting this thread down. It isn't doing anyone any good.

 

[Lucifer]

Re: Re: Re: Think you are missing a few areas.

I've not seen him indicate any accusations that stuff was stolen, but I thought he was more or less angry about the name stealing.

Name stealing? So, should the writers of the original City of Brass (the ones from Arabian lore) be upset with Rob for "stealing" the name. He certainly didn't invent it.

I don't think that's the case, but I do think that the least they can do is change the name. And since he first provided the ideas, even if they don't use them, he may have the right to sue.

Right to sue? For what? "Since he provided the ideas, EVEN IF THEY DON'T USE THEM".

So, if you and I collaborate on a project about Greek gods and had some initial discussions about the project, including idea exchanges, and then I walked away or you fired me, would you be required to halt the project? Or if you went forward with it, using NONE of my ideas, but brought other writers on board to complete the project, would I have the right to sue?

Again, that's not the point here. It doesn't matter if Rob isn't good or timely.

Perhaps not the point, but it does matter. Ask any publisher (software, game, music) about writers, developers, or designers handing material in in a timely matter.

Well, unfortunately, they won't be getting my purchase unless they change the name. And no, it's not a Necromancer boycott, just that product is now tainted.

So, if the material is outstanding and they called it "Journey to the Plane of Fire" and you bought it and got more than your money's worth out of it, you'd be happy? But, if the same outstanding material was published under the title "City of Brass" you wouldn't buy it? Makes sense.

 

[JoeGKushner]

My last post on this subject

You know, I think one of the reasons people like subjects like this is that they can post their ideas and share their opinons on the way they think things should work.

Me? I don't know enough legally about the situation to know what type of defense Rob has.

I do know I havent' enjoyed his D20 modules, from Troll Lords or Necromancer but have enjoyed other material from those companies.

Say the best situation comes up and both make a product "City of Brass" that are both fantastic. I'll enjoy both.

Otherwise, I'll enjoy the one, Rob or Necromancer, that's better written and has a better grasp of the rules.

It's just that simple.

Necromancer does indeed have a proven track record with many great releases and Rob, in my opinion, for 3rd edition, hasn't done a thing worth keeping.

As a reviewer and player of the game, for me, it's just that simple.

 

[Eosin the Red]

You know pointing out someone elses moral or ethical flaws does not make yours any more correct. By your logic anything is excusable as long as someone else has done it before. It is not. I don't judge the merits of the case that I will never understand - that would be wrong. I can judge someones public actions. You judge the case you have little to no understanding of, yet deride others for condeming poor public behavior. How does that jive?

It does not matter what ill things occured - if a breach in law was made, take it to the courts. Then we all hear the facts and not uniformed supposition. This part will take care of itself through the law - I need not concern myself with it. But there is not a court of professional conduct, it is up to the society or sub-set to enforce mores against such bad behavior. Public condemnation and professional shunning of poor behavior is the tool used to discourage bad behavior.

You are watching civics in action.

 

[JohnRTroy]

When did I ever say you guys were conducting improper behavior. You are free to do what you want.

I'm just making sure you guys are not "mixing" the judgements. You have to seperate the various talents of the people involved, and seperate the public face of the people involved, from the judgement of whether or not Necromancer announcing a "City of Brass" right after they parted ways with Rob Kuntz from which they planned to publish a similar product might be a conflict of interest.

 

[Nightfall]

I personally don't feel there's any moral high ground on Rob's part. Necromancer asked him to do it. He futz around and didn't do it. Now he takes away his toys and when Clark and Scott decided they wanted their own verison, some people cried "Foul!" because it sounded like they stole from Rob, when in fact he didn't. Pretty simple here. The name stealing isn't any more prevelant than any other business, especially the RPG where good original ideas that are mythologically based, are very hard to come by.

So why should I feel upset at Clark or Scott for trying to give us what we, the gamers want? I thought that's what D&D and d20 was about. Not about whose name is on the cover.

 

[Nightfall]

Re: My last post on this subject

Necromancer does indeed have a proven track record with many great releases and Rob, in my opinion, for 3rd edition, hasn't done a thing worth keeping.

As a reviewer and player of the game, for me, it's just that simple.

Agreed. While don't have the Maze series, I have skimmed Dark Druids. Let me say I put it down well before I got 10 pages deep into it. Even with stuff from guys like AEG and Monkey God Games, I can at least get through some of their modules and sourcebooks. I couldn't with this. I don't blame Troll Lords (I got copies of the first 4 modules. Pretty decent/good stuff.) But I do think Rob Kuntz has been out of the loop for too long.

 

[Eosin the Red]

When did I ever say you guys were conducting improper behavior. You are free to do what you want.

I'm just making sure you guys are not "mixing" the judgements. You have to seperate the various talents of the people involved, and seperate the public face of the people involved, from the judgement of whether or not Necromancer announcing a "City of Brass" right after they parted ways with Rob Kuntz from which they planned to publish a similar product might be a conflict of interest.

You chastise us for not having the facts and leaping to defense of someone on personal reasons, right before you sumize the case for us and indicate that in your opinion there is a conflict of interest. Curious?

Let me say with total confidence, that I am not mixing issues. Unlike others, I have made no comments on a case I don't understand. You should heed your own advice. Unless you understand the particulirs, let others handle the legal stuff.

But we are free to judge others public behavior, in fact for our society to function it is necessary. Posting private e-mails is poor form, unprofessional, and immature. Your continued defense of such behavior and your assumption of "facts" reguarding the case speaks volumes about who is biased on this issue.

I know people who will defend child rapists and drug dealers - I have a sick fascination with how others excuse bad behavior. While this is nowhere near the scale nor seriousness of such issues, I still find myself wanting to know how you justify RJKs behavior? How can you, in good faith, say that such actions are acceptiable? How can you defend another that does these things?

Where do you draw the line on the public disclosure of private e-mail? If your girlfriend posted a love letter would that be wrong? How about if you were told that you weren't accepted into a school? What if debt collectors posted your debts and lack of payments on message boards? How about if WotC sent an announcement to all of the relevant website that you had recieved a cease and desist?

My guess is that all of us will agree those are all wrong - so what makes it OK for your friend to do the same and for you to offer excuses for it?

[edit: clarified question]