Two Cities of Brass?
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Just Because of this Thread...
...I'm going to do my own version. City of Brass: The Efreet of Dragon Earth.
Anybody else thinking of doing a City of Brass book? (I can see it now, 100 copies of City of Brass, each done by a different publisher.)
Alan Kellogg, author of Title Theft d20. The RPG of intellectual non-piracy.
...I'm going to do my own version. City of Brass: The Efreet of Dragon Earth.
Anybody else thinking of doing a City of Brass book? (I can see it now, 100 copies of City of Brass, each done by a different publisher.
)Alan Kellogg, author of Title Theft d20. The RPG of intellectual non-piracy.
Darrin Drader
Explorer
Again, I'll cry out to the moderators who seem to be on vacation this weekend. CLOSE THIS THREAD ALREADY. The two sides are not going to come to an agreement, and this thread was started to undermine the respect of a publisher. It's a PR thing that isn't good for either side or the community, and in the end all that will come of it is hurt feelings on both sides.
Now, having said that, I am a freelancer. I could list my past projects, but I'm not going to unless someone really wants me to do so. Now, as a freelancer, if I had been contracted by a publisher to do a project, and then we had a falling out, whether the issues that started the contention originated with me or not, I would fully expect that publisher to go on with the project with or without me... even if the project was my idea originally... even if I had been designing for thirty years and had a cult following of hero worshippers with chips on their shoulders... and especially if the title of the book was property of no one except for someone who has been dead for hundreds, if not thousands of years.
And as for WotC trying to claim the City of Brass as IP - aint going to happen unless they can also try to say that they own all of the Arabian Nights because they did a setting called Al-Qadim. It is patently ridiculous.
Now please, lets just agree to disagree on this, and have the moderators close this threat before Nightfall and rpace give each other virtual bloody noses.
Now, having said that, I am a freelancer. I could list my past projects, but I'm not going to unless someone really wants me to do so. Now, as a freelancer, if I had been contracted by a publisher to do a project, and then we had a falling out, whether the issues that started the contention originated with me or not, I would fully expect that publisher to go on with the project with or without me... even if the project was my idea originally... even if I had been designing for thirty years and had a cult following of hero worshippers with chips on their shoulders... and especially if the title of the book was property of no one except for someone who has been dead for hundreds, if not thousands of years.
And as for WotC trying to claim the City of Brass as IP - aint going to happen unless they can also try to say that they own all of the Arabian Nights because they did a setting called Al-Qadim. It is patently ridiculous.
Now please, lets just agree to disagree on this, and have the moderators close this threat before Nightfall and rpace give each other virtual bloody noses.
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Dol Umroth
First Post
After reading this thread and most of the discussions on this topic on the NG and PPP boards I just want to voice my opinion on this. I'll not judge any comments of board members, although I am tempted to do so since some of the posts on this thread and on the other discussions surely seem clouded by high-running emotions. But this wouldn't help, it would just fan the flames.
IIRC the City of Brass has been announced by Necromancergames a long time ago and - as I understand it - it was a very important part of their Product Line from the very beginning. Since RJK and NG initially agreed (AFAIK) to first publish the "Maze" - series and (for whatever reason) their business relationship ended before even the last adventure of the series was published, it was clear that no RJK "City of Brass" would ever be published by NG. But since, as I understand it, it was Clark's and Bill's dream to publish a City of Brass at some time it is IMO totaly O.K. to do it now - with a different writer. It was NG to have the idea to publish "City of Brass" for 3e - as I understand it they contacted him if he wanted to do it, not the other way round. I'm sure that if he had initially declined to do it for NG, they had published it a lot earlier and with a different writer - and no one would object.
So it's not unethical to call it "City of Brass".
This name isn't copyrighted in any way, and since NG's dream was - in the first place - to publish an adventure/sourcebook called "City of Brass", why should they refrain from doing so? Just because RJK wants to publish it in his own right? I fail to understand what exactly is unethical about the whole matter. (As a matter of fact IMO the only thing coming close to "unethical" mode of conduct in the whole matter is that RJK disclosed personal e-mail correspondence between him and Clark. But I won't comment any further on this, since if Clark himself doesn't do that - who am I to do it.)
...just my 2 cents...
IIRC the City of Brass has been announced by Necromancergames a long time ago and - as I understand it - it was a very important part of their Product Line from the very beginning. Since RJK and NG initially agreed (AFAIK) to first publish the "Maze" - series and (for whatever reason) their business relationship ended before even the last adventure of the series was published, it was clear that no RJK "City of Brass" would ever be published by NG. But since, as I understand it, it was Clark's and Bill's dream to publish a City of Brass at some time it is IMO totaly O.K. to do it now - with a different writer. It was NG to have the idea to publish "City of Brass" for 3e - as I understand it they contacted him if he wanted to do it, not the other way round. I'm sure that if he had initially declined to do it for NG, they had published it a lot earlier and with a different writer - and no one would object.
So it's not unethical to call it "City of Brass".
This name isn't copyrighted in any way, and since NG's dream was - in the first place - to publish an adventure/sourcebook called "City of Brass", why should they refrain from doing so? Just because RJK wants to publish it in his own right? I fail to understand what exactly is unethical about the whole matter. (As a matter of fact IMO the only thing coming close to "unethical" mode of conduct in the whole matter is that RJK disclosed personal e-mail correspondence between him and Clark. But I won't comment any further on this, since if Clark himself doesn't do that - who am I to do it.)
...just my 2 cents...
I also humbly ask the moderators to close this thread, things are getting way too personal for my tastes...
I think here we have two different ways of seeing life, moral and/or ethics. And noone of us is going to change it. My views align with Nightfall, Dragongirl and others, but I can also understand the other view. What I cannot understand or respect is the crossing of personal remarks, and everyone here will finish doing it if we let this continue...
So please, close it once forever...
No signature because it's not Iconic Jester speaking, is a tired Horacio
I think here we have two different ways of seeing life, moral and/or ethics. And noone of us is going to change it. My views align with Nightfall, Dragongirl and others, but I can also understand the other view. What I cannot understand or respect is the crossing of personal remarks, and everyone here will finish doing it if we let this continue...
So please, close it once forever...
No signature because it's not Iconic Jester speaking, is a tired Horacio
LcKedovan
Explorer
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ceasar's Wife. . . .
Well STOP PRESS! Maybe Rob should also change the name since it has already been used in Arabian Mythology.
And in FACT! While we are at it, lets ask Jim from Bastion to change thier Norse Gods .pdf since the "Norse Gods" are a historical mythology.... maybe we can go one step further and not let any single publisher use a name that has historical roots. Oh my! Two publishers are releasing a product called "Yggdrasil" one of them should have to change the title from a "historical mythological name" to something else... gee how about "That Big Norse Tree"... puuuuhhhllease... morality and ethics play absolutely NO part in any of this debate when it comes to the name of "City of Brass". The name is public property. Period. End of sentance. Debate over the name "City of Brass ended. Case closed.
Hell... maybe Micheal Moorcock should be invited to this debate since he has a previously published book called "City of Brass".
-W.
rpace said:
Well STOP PRESS! Maybe Rob should also change the name since it has already been used in Arabian Mythology.
And in FACT! While we are at it, lets ask Jim from Bastion to change thier Norse Gods .pdf since the "Norse Gods" are a historical mythology.... maybe we can go one step further and not let any single publisher use a name that has historical roots. Oh my! Two publishers are releasing a product called "Yggdrasil" one of them should have to change the title from a "historical mythological name" to something else... gee how about "That Big Norse Tree"... puuuuhhhllease... morality and ethics play absolutely NO part in any of this debate when it comes to the name of "City of Brass". The name is public property. Period. End of sentance. Debate over the name "City of Brass ended. Case closed.
Hell... maybe Micheal Moorcock should be invited to this debate since he has a previously published book called "City of Brass".
-W.
I fail to see how changing the name of the product changes the ethics, legalities, etc. of the matter. Would that just then make the arguments one of semantics?
If NG changed the name to "The Metropolis of Copper and Zinc" everybody would still know its really the City of Brass that they said they wanted to do years ago but with a different author.
I personally look forward to both but especially to NGs because it will be a printed book and will come out roughly the time they say it will.
If RJK is offended he should buckle down and write the best damn City of Brass he can to show us all why his vision can be the only one.
If NG changed the name to "The Metropolis of Copper and Zinc" everybody would still know its really the City of Brass that they said they wanted to do years ago but with a different author.
I personally look forward to both but especially to NGs because it will be a printed book and will come out roughly the time they say it will.
If RJK is offended he should buckle down and write the best damn City of Brass he can to show us all why his vision can be the only one.
PatrickLawinger
First Post
Re: Ceasar's Wife. . . .
I happen to be a freelancer working for Necromancer Games. I have found Clark and Bill to be two of the most ethical and easy to work with individuals in the business.
The idea that they should change the name on a project because their first choice author bailed on them is ludicrous. Clark wanted to do this project and his first choice as author was Rob. That didn't work out. If someone proposes a project to me, and I go on to something else, I am pretty confident they will find someone else for their project.
"The City of Brass" was around long before Rob did anything with it. Numerous role-playing games, card games, and computer games have a City of Brass of some sort. This is what happens when you have a mythological location that inspires the imagination of many different people.
Calling it anything other than the "City of Brass" is ludicrous. As for Rob's ability to sell his version, I doubt it would make much difference as both products are slated to be quite different and I am guessing Rob's timeline would put his product out long after Necro's is released.
Necro is not stealing someone's project, they proposed this project to Rob. Hard to steal something you proposed doing in the first place.
rpace said:
I happen to be a freelancer working for Necromancer Games. I have found Clark and Bill to be two of the most ethical and easy to work with individuals in the business.
The idea that they should change the name on a project because their first choice author bailed on them is ludicrous. Clark wanted to do this project and his first choice as author was Rob. That didn't work out. If someone proposes a project to me, and I go on to something else, I am pretty confident they will find someone else for their project.
"The City of Brass" was around long before Rob did anything with it. Numerous role-playing games, card games, and computer games have a City of Brass of some sort. This is what happens when you have a mythological location that inspires the imagination of many different people.
Calling it anything other than the "City of Brass" is ludicrous. As for Rob's ability to sell his version, I doubt it would make much difference as both products are slated to be quite different and I am guessing Rob's timeline would put his product out long after Necro's is released.
Necro is not stealing someone's project, they proposed this project to Rob. Hard to steal something you proposed doing in the first place.
Nightfall
Sage of the Scarred Lands
Re: Re: Ceasar's Wife. . . .
I know this. You know this. But some others don't. In any case, Darrin, Horatio and the rest are right, this is where we'll just have to agree to disagree. In any case, I'm alright with that. I just like to say I do NOT feel morally superior to the people I've been arguing with. But I DO feel lucky to have the support and camerire of everyone here.
Btw BBF, no hard feeling okay?
PatrickLawinger said:
I know this. You know this. But some others don't. In any case, Darrin, Horatio and the rest are right, this is where we'll just have to agree to disagree. In any case, I'm alright with that. I just like to say I do NOT feel morally superior to the people I've been arguing with. But I DO feel lucky to have the support and camerire of everyone here.
Btw BBF, no hard feeling okay?
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