Two feats every rogue must have

[Egres]

Except... that isn't what he was getting now then, was it?

He's getting somenthing that works like it, and that's enough to grant him an always active chance to SA.

I'm inclined to say that you need a third feat that actually grants you essentia to use this "combo". The globe of darkness that you can create has a radius of 5 feet per essentia invested into the Shadow Mantle, and neither of the feats grants essentia.

A 5ft radius isn't enough?

Just play an Azurin, then.

The soulmeld can be dispelled like a magical item.

Right.

For 1d4 rounds.

If these feats are available, chances are that other material from Magic of Incarnum are available, as well, for friend or foe. There can be some enemies who will be able to battle the soulmeld's effect.

For example?

And while it may be handy for combat, it's not really very subtle at all.

Well, in an area of complete darkness it basically grants you a short radius blindsight.

Devil's Sight, the invocation, sees through it, as do Devils, and people with blindsight, scent, etc

Devil's sight and devils?

How many warlocks and devils are you going to fight?

Not to mention that the well known invocation, See the unseen, doesn't work against it.

And, for blindsight and scent, well, those work well against invisibility too, so they don't matter.

 

[green slime]

This ability is in no way comparable to getting greater invisibility at will all day.

Firstly, when the poor guy uses this ability, he can't see beyond his own 5 foot radius!! How useful is that? He is going to have to be taking it down so he can see where to go! No advantage for missile fire, when compared to being invisible that's for sure.

Secondly. with a mere 5 foot radius, he is in for a pounding at this level, and he stands without a cloak of resistance.

At twelfth level, there are many ways for characters to avoid critical damage, and therefore sneak attacks. Sneak attacks are not the be all, end all, of combat.

Walking around in a glob of inky blackness isn't going to help in the sneaky department, either.

I really don't see the problem.

 

[Egres]

This ability is in no way comparable to getting greater invisibility at will all day.

Firstly, when the poor guy uses this ability, he can't see beyond his own 5 foot radius!! How useful is that? He is going to have to be taking it down so he can see where to go! No advantage for missile fire, when compared to being invisible that's for sure.

Secondly. with a mere 5 foot radius, he is in for a pounding at this level, and he stands without a cloak of resistance.

At twelfth level, there are many ways for characters to avoid critical damage, and therefore sneak attacks. Sneak attacks are not the be all, end all, of combat.

Walking around in a glob of inky blackness isn't going to help in the sneaky department, either.

I really don't see the problem.

So, you find these feats useless for a rogue?

Come on.

 

[Piratecat]

So, you find these feats useless for a rogue?

Come on.

No, he didn't say that. I think he's implying that he doesn't find them to be unbalancing. There's a big difference.

I don't think +1 insight to reflex saves is a big deal at all, and wouldn't select it for one of my rogues. It's nice, but kind of boring.

And shadow mantle? Having a big ball of darkness around you is far weaker than greater invisibility. It more akin to a displacement that limits your sight to 5' -- and I consider that to be a major limitation.

Part of the reason it isn't as strong as it appears, in my opinion, is that the rogue can't sneak anywhere; a big ball of darkness is going to freak people out and be the target of many spells.

The real concern is that every attack will be a sneak attack, assuming that the rogue can find the person he's trying to fight. My gut feel is that the vision limitation balances out this ability. I'd need to see it in a game to know for sure.

 

[Krelios]

I wouldn't say these are must haves. I'd rather pick up a ring of invisibility than pay two feats. Heck, with a decent enough Hide check, I'll get sneak attacks from hiding and I won't be a giant blob of darkness coming towards my enemies.

I'd never take this combo.

 

[green slime]

So, you find these feats useless for a rogue?

Come on.

No, but neither do I find them to be "must haves" for every rogue which you yourself claim them to be. I find them to be a tad on the weak side, IMO. The ball of darkness thing is kind of flavourful, and I might consider it if I was playing a rogue with the Shadow Heritage feat, or similar.

In fact, I'd be more worried about a fighter taking this feat chain. Fighters have more to gain, IMO, and can afford the feats to get it.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The real concern is that every attack will be a sneak attack, assuming that the rogue can find the person he's trying to fight. My gut feel is that the vision limitation balances out this ability. I'd need to see it in a game to know for sure.

That's the problem with the feat IMO. How do you maintain believable non-metagaming for the player? Have him sit in another room where he can't see the battlemat and only tell him what's within a 5ft radius?

 

[Aust Diamondew]

So the darkness blocks his vision? Cause normally you can see through a pitch black area if there is a lighted area beyond it.

 

[Agent Oracle]

So the darkness blocks his vision? Cause normally you can see through a pitch black area if there is a lighted area beyond it.

it's magical complete darkness. darkness that is opaque. If a hallway has a lit torch at each end, and magical darkness in the middle, stading in the middle will prevent you from seeing both torches, but standing at either torch will allow you to see the darkness. (provided it's within the area of torchlight)

 

[Particle_Man]

I'll stick to flanking, thanks.