Two-fisted Shooter feat?

[Mort_Q]

why is wielding two h. crossbows desirable?

Flavour?

what is the advantage over wielding a single sup crossbow with speed loader?

That's two feats.

or a shrunken or dagger? a little extra range? far thrower takes care of that.

Sure.

so i get to make a free (i'll infer that it is a free action since this isn't specified) ranged basic attack when i score a crit with my primary h. crossbow? how often does that happen?

1 in 20 or better.

there are only three rogue powers that i can find that open the range of rolls that score a crit.

what is the benefit of h. crossbow being off-hand? none of the feats and class abilities that apply to wield two weapons apply since they all specify melee weapons

Not all.
Hidden Blade is new. I suspect we'll see more.

I guess I'm asking people who use this feat... how do you use it to advantage? is it better to have two h. crossbows or melee and h. crossbow? why is that better than sup crossbow and speed loader? what other feats do you take with this one to make it more worth while than i'm interpreting?

What is worth while is subjective. YMMV.

can you show me a unique rouge build that uses this feat? one thats different from any other ranged rouge?

Now you're just being lazy.

 

[Istar]

I beleive the answer to your question is "Fantasy".

You are a dagger throwiing Daggermaster Half Elf with Twin Strike, every round you have a 28% chance of getting off your off-hand Hand X.bow.

For D6+6+Weapon+Brac.ofArch - say another 14 damage.

And next round its re-loaded as a free action.
Maybe he's doing a rambo with the dagger in his teeth or jabbed in his knee for hald a second, who cares.

 

[Legildur]

Now you're just being lazy.

Are you talking about the hypothetical, or his spelling?

 

[Pbartender]

i hate repeating myself...

The advantage is not for Ranged Rogues, it's for Balanced Rogues who straddle line between Ranged and Melee.

For example, my wife plays a Rogue who variously wields a short sword, a hand crossbow, or a dagger, depending on the situation. Mostly, she switches between the short sword and the crossbow using Quick Draw.

For her, the advantage is that she could weild both the sword and the crossbow at the same time, without having to put one away (think of your stereoptypical image of a pirate with a cutlass and a pistol). She can switch between her melee and ranged powers without worry. She can be prepared for making a ranged attack, while still being able to make Opportunity Attacks. Her off-hand is now doing soemthing useful, rather than flopping around uselessly. Plus, she can retrain her now slightly less useful Quick Draw feat into something better.

Also, consider a Rogue with Two-Fisted Shooter and Heavy Shield Proficiency. A ranged attacker that can use a shield is certainly a unique build.

Also consider multiclass options... I haven't looked into it in detail, but a Ranger with the Rogue multiclass feat could take Two-Fisted Shooter. It could feasibly be more useful to them.

 

[Obryn]

Hand crossbows have a better range and bigger [W]. In some cases - say, against easy-to-hit foes, or against foes who are out of good dagger-toss range - having a backup hand crossbow always at the ready is pretty cool.

I'd say it's worth the feat, for a lot of rogues.

-O

 

[kugelkj]

thanks to those who responded constructively... again my purpose for posting this tread was to see how people were using this feat (presumably because I tried and was unsatisfied, in spite of my laziness/bad spelling condition)

I guess I'm just looking at this feat from the wrong angle.

I did come up with an idea for a rouge that dual wields h. crossbows with different magic damage types (flameburst and thunderburst) to take advantage of monster vulnerabilities... throw in some alchemical ammunition and you could have an interesting two-fisted shooter build.

thanks again

 

[Kolzig]

The problem with this feat is that it takes many more other feats to make it worth it for a character who goes melee any amount of the time (and you could take two-weapon opening in that case instead). However, it can be useful in some cases. A half-elf rogue chucking daggers, as mentioned before. Or a half-elf avenger with twin strike... but then they can't use oath of enmity to reroll attacks, which defeats most of the point.

It's only really worth it if you can find a way to increase your crit range with your main weapon. The only paragon paths with 18-20 crit ranges are Daggermaster and Student of Caiphon, and for that you would need to be using either fear or radiant weapons.

I'm wondering though - if you're wielding a single hand crossbow and crit with it, can you do a basic attack with it using this feat? It says with your off-hand weapon, but I'm not sure if that specifically means the weapon in your other hand.

It might also be useful for a Drow rogue dual wielding hand crossbows, since Drow have a feat to make hand crossbows 1d8 and high crit. Unfortunately, there's no way to increase the crit range on the crossbow without taking the Student of Caiphon PP, and there's only one magic crossbow that deals radiant damage. Your DM might be upset at the concept of a rogue using a radiant crossbow and it's at least a level 15 item anyways.

 

[Tai]

My plan was to play a sorceror/daggermaster, and fling around area attacks with an 18-20 crit range. That way I get a whole bunch of free crossbow attacks, and it only costs one feat to do... And let's be honest, I wasn't using that hand anyway.

 

[kugelkj]

The problem with this feat is that it takes many more other feats to make it worth it for a character who goes melee any amount of the time (and you could take two-weapon opening in that case instead).

I agree on this point. To take full advantage of this feat you'd have to support it with other feats like WP: rapier, WF hand crossbow and rapier, etc... but the two-weapon feats do not apply. They specify melee weapons (even opening) with the exception of ambush (which has two-weapon fighting as a prereq.) However, I see the value in just taking the feat alone for a rogue who wants to be able to draw OA while flanking with a fighter or paladin. I've come to see the value for a balanced rogue.

I'm wondering though - if you're wielding a single hand crossbow and crit with it, can you do a basic attack with it using this feat? It says with your off-hand weapon, but I'm not sure if that specifically means the weapon in your other hand.

No. the feat specifically says when you score a crit (on either weapon) AND you have a hand crossbow in your off-hand, you may make a ranged basic attack with THAT weapon (that being the off-hand weapon is my reading)

Student of Caiphon PP, and there's only one magic crossbow that deals radiant damage. Your DM might be upset at the concept of a rogue using a radiant crossbow and it's at least a level 15 item anyways.

My player enjoy the heroic tier; so PP's and 15th level items don't really come into play (for my group) unless we keep a game going for years (rarely) and just find ourselves in the paragon tier (the epic tier is right out).

 

[mneme]

My plan was to play a sorceror/daggermaster, and fling around area attacks with an 18-20 crit range. That way I get a whole bunch of free crossbow attacks, and it only costs one feat to do... And let's be honest, I wasn't using that hand anyway.

Heh. That one's fun.

I'm not sure -- can one get Arcane Implement Proficiency (Songbow) (and, of course, Dual Implement)? Character builder doesn't give that as an option, so it would have to be negotiated/house ruled, but it's a pretty obvious possibility (and a future arcane class may very well just get bows as an implement flat-out)

You can't use the specials on songbows (as they're all "if you used a bard power through this implement"), but they're only a +1 cost ability, and getting 2x magic damage bonus is quite sweet. Oh, and that means the "ranged basic attack" you made through the hand crossbow on a crit could be an Acid Orb.