Two game concepts that survive everywhere but D&D...

[Doug McCrae]

Eberron's action points, at least in 3e (I'm not familiar with 4e Eberron), don't let you take heroic actions like swinging from chandeliers or running up a dinosaur's back, a considerable flaw imo. They just give you +1d6 to d20 rolls. That's not going to be anything like enough if the PC doesn't have jumping/tumbling/etc.

As far as I can see, Savage Worlds bennies are much the same, they just let you take a reroll, or avoid damage, but they don't let you do action movie stuff, unless your character could do that already.

Hero points in M&M are potentially much more open-ended, so GM fiat does come into play there. They can also be used to give bonuses, +10 and a reroll when applied to a d20 roll, so they're significantly more powerful than those in Eberron.

Another aspect of GM fiat with M&M's hero points is that they are actually awarded when the GM chooses to use fiat. For example if a PC takes out a boss villain on the first action of round one, the GM can declare the villain safe and award the PC's player a hero point. Likewise if the GM simply declared all the PCs captured so he could run his death trap scenario, all players would get a hero point.

I never did the 'keeping the villain standing' thing when I ran M&M as it seemed an abuse of GM power. And, more seriously it just seemed to be papering over a big crack in the system, which should have stronger, or more obvious, mechanical means for keeping a BBEG up in the early rounds.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I realy do not get the OP, two game concepts that go everywhere but DnD ... no sorry that is totally false.

I could easily mention that DnD does have a critical system since 3E or that I have personally played more than a dozen non-DnD games that have no crit system. (in fact a crit system is in the minority and the limbs falling of level is in a tiny tiny minority)

I could also mention the AP sub system (admittedly from 4E only) or that there are, once again, a dozen non DnD games that have no 'heroic sub system'

My thoughts?

That this is a really odd way to start a thread with assumptions/assertions that are blatantly false.

Confused as to OP's point...

 

[Starfox]

To the OP: You say DnD lack two things it has. For your argument to have any merit, you must first say what DnD has is not valid, then that many other systems have it.

DnD has Critical hits (has had since edition 3.0) and has Action Points (since 4.0). These may not be as dramatic as some games, but certainly more dramatic than others. If your definition of critical hits involve gore, you'll find that few games have that. Maybe the games you play do, but that's selective perception.

Action points in 4E are not the most exiting of hero points, you got a point there. The trouble is, for a "balanced" game like 4E, powerful hero points would be too swingy.

 

[Jhaelen]

Many games have the following, but the granddaddy, as it were, does not.

First, many games have a critical hit system. D&D does not. (Quite steadfastly, in fact. One can purchase 3rd party critical hit systems, but none of them seem to have had much traction with GMs and players.)

Second, many systems have attempted some sort of heroic action sub-system, whether it be bennies in Savage Worlds, or Mr. Mike Mearls' rules on stunts/challenges in Iron Heroes. Official D&D does not (with some exceptions - Eberron comes to mind).

D&D - at least in 4e - has both.

Why OD&D didn't have them, well, you already said it: because it's the granddaddy system. 'Heroic' subsystems are a realtively new addition to rpgs. When was the first rpg released that had one?

Actual critical hit tables have been a popular house rule as far as I can think back. We've been consistently using them in our BECMI and AD&D 1e days.

 

[Umbran]

Two key concepts that are extremely popular across the gaming world, at least as design attempts, have nearly no place in D&D. Why is this?

As you consider this, remember that perhaps the second most popular tabletop game engine - White Wolf's World of Darkness - also lacks the features you're considering (to at least the degree that D&D lacks them - since criticals and some form of "action" systems do exist in D&D, but apparently not as you prefer them).

And, I think you overstate the case somewhat, in that there are lots and lots of games that don't have critical hits, or explicit movie-action-stunt systems.

 

[Doug McCrae]

'Heroic' subsystems are a realtively new addition to rpgs. When was the first rpg released that had one?

Top Secret (1980) was the first I believe. The hero points in James Bond 007 (1983) actually allowed the player to edit reality beyond the control of his PC. The play example has James Bond's player spending a hero point to have a gold brick to hand, with which to bash Oddjob. They can also be used to improve die rolls or avoid damage, which is explicitly intended to simulate the stunts in a Bond movie, such as "riding a horse to grab hold of a plane's tail."

The first detailed critical hit system might be Arduin Grimoire in 1977, not 100% sure about this though. Empire of the Petal Throne (1975) had double damage on a 20.

 

[Klaus]

D&D has had a Critical Hits/Called Shot/Hit Location as far back as the Complete Fighter's Handbook, Player's Options: Combat and Tactics and 3e's Unearthed Arcana.

It has never worked out well because, for most, it's just not fun.

 

[TerraDave]

Runequest also had an early critical hit system. And Rolemaster: Arms Law was probablly the system that in turn inspired the one in the Player Option book and many other places.

Don't think either had a stunt/action point system (well, maybe they did in some version much latter).

But, as Merric has touched on, 4E captures both of these through powers. And this thread makes me think that is a better way to do it then the alternatives implied by the OP.

 

[Doug McCrae]

D&D has had a Critical Hits/Called Shot/Hit Location as far back as the Complete Fighter's Handbook, Player's Options: Combat and Tactics and 3e's Unearthed Arcana.

There's a hit location system in OD&D Supplement II: Blackmoor, 1975.

 

[Votan]

D&D has had a Critical Hits/Called Shot/Hit Location as far back as the Complete Fighter's Handbook, Player's Options: Combat and Tactics and 3e's Unearthed Arcana.

It has never worked out well because, for most, it's just not fun.

The reason that I think that critical hits are not fun is that the odds tend to catch up with a combatnat, sooner or later. Even Miyamoto Musashi, famous thoughout Japan, appears to have only had 60 duels in his lifetime (the majority of which were not to the death). Many of his famous opponents, also accomplished duelists, were killed or maimed in these fights.

If we assumed 10 encounters per level, a D&D hero needs to be involved in roughly 300 fights across 30 levels; most of which are lethal combat. Adding the realism of being potentially crippled by a blow (at least until the levels that regeneration is easily available) means that many characters will be removed from the game due to injuries.

Heck, just adding realistic healing times (e.g. weeks to have serious cuts heal or bones knit) would completely change the game.