Two haste weapons

[Vraille Darkfang]

To go against the grain here, I'm going to try going through this with a character example.

Lets take high level fighter Bob (11th lvl), and say he's decided to begin taking the 2-weapon fighting feats, but at present is only able to make a single off-hand attack. Bob makes 3 attacks with his primary weapon and 1 with his offhand weapon. Let's say he has a +4 Flaming, Shocking Burst Rapier and a +1 Dagger.

After a long day of killing various monsters for their treasure, Bob finds a +1 Dagger of Speed. Then he comes unto battle with a bunch of dire attorney kobolds. Battle ensues. Can Bob use his extra speed attack with his Rapier? No, as the Speed property clearly states that the extra attack must be made with it (grammatically refereing to the weapon with the speed enhancemnt). All his extra attacks must be made with the +1 dagger. This is pretty clear.

But, what is the party's wizard, Bobby, casts Haste on Bob? Now Bob gets an extra attack action with the full attack action. Now what's Bob to do? Bob now may get an extra attack with one of his weapons from the spell, or he can get an extra attack with his +1 Dagger of Speed. As the spell allows him to get an extra attack with ANYTHING (sword, punch, beer mug, +1 Dagger of Speed). The spell overlaps the Dagger's enchantment and it explicitly states the effects don't overlap. Thus in this case Bob may use the spells effect to make an extra attack with ANY WEAPON he possesses (including the +1 Dagger of Speed). Thus Bob may now chose whcih weapon he makes his attack with (either the +4 Rapier or the +1 Dagger, but not both.

Here is wher the rules get somewhat buggy. Say Bob loses his +4 Rapier, but fins a +3 Rapier of Speed. Bob now has a +3 Rapier of Speed & a +1 Dagger of Speed. He is ambushed by killer orcs from outer space. What does our hero do now?

The +3 Rapier gives an extra attack with the +3 Rapier of Speed when using the full attack action. The +1 Dagger gives an extra attack with the +1 Dagger of speed when using the full attack action. It COULD be said that since the enchantments don't effect each other (both weapons treated as seperate effects) Bob makes 2 extra attacks 1 with the dagger, 1 with the rapier. OR, it COULD be said that the enchantments overlap since the effect the same target (Bob), thus Bob gets only 1 extra attack, with either the Rapier or Dagger.

Thus we get into teh nasty semantics of grammer/intent/game balance/etc. Whcih is correct? Why your DM's of course! When dual-wielding 2 weapons of speed, it's up to your DM as to which he/she prefers.

Dungeon Masters! Read here! This does bring up some nasty questions, many of whcih could bring an entire gaming session to a screaming halt. In short choose 1 of these options and stick to it, especially pay attention to potentially similar situations.

Example: Robert the Barbarian Dwarf has a +2 Dwarven Waraxe of Mighty Cleaving and a +2 Handaxe of Mighty Cleaving. (Mighty Cleaving giving the possessors of the Cleave Feat 1 extra Cleave Attempt when using the weapon). THus if Robert kills an orc with his Dwarven Waraxe, then, Cleaves, kills another, then uses his Mighty Cleaving ability to gain an extra attack. Then kills another orc with his handaxe, will you let him invoke the Mighty Cleaving power in his Handaxe, or will he be unable to as he has already used the Mighty Cleave power this round?

Myself? I'll let dual speed weapons allow 2 extra attacks in a round. More because I feel that a weapon of speed allows the wielder to strike more quickly with itself (the weapon) rather than empowering the wielder with the abblity to attack moer quickly. Thus 2 speed weapons "jump" out of an attackers hand, almost seeking to attack on their own, rather than speeding the wielder into "bullet-time" and allowing him to move with extraordinary swiftness.

Until "offical" errata rears its ugly head, thats my ideal!

Vraille Darkfang signing off.

 

[comrade raoul]

My memory of previous discussions is that people have argued pretty clearly that the rules prohibit characters from making an extra attack with each speed weapon, but I'm too lazy to find official sources, and I might be wrong.

That said, I agree with Vraille and Plane Sailing tha there are very good conceptual and balance reasons to allow a character with two speed weapons to attack with each one. Another, previously unmentioned thing to note is the speed property doesn't provide many of the benefits of the haste spell, which provides a solid conceptual reason to eschew conflating the two. Altogether I think allowing the benefits to stack would make an excellent house-rule.

 

[Scion]

Because of the sheer cost of it I'd probably go with letting them get both extra attacks from the two weapons. Unless some huge problem occurs then it seems like a pretty bad tradeoff most of the time anyway.

Although, a double sword, brilliant energy, speed, with frosty burst on one end and fiery burst on the other would be really interesting

 

[Hypersmurf]

Although some people have said that the speed effect is on the wielder, that is only half right... because the user of a dagger of speed can't use the power to gain an extra attack with the dwarven waraxe of whopping which he's holding in the other hand! It only gives an extra attack with the weapon itself. The wording about wielders is a redundant red herring... who else is going to be using it?

But doesn't this interpretation mean that if you have your waraxe of whopping, your dagger of speed, and a haste spell...

... and you take the extra attack from haste with your waraxe...

... then taking the extra speed attack with the dagger is fine, because (since the haste attack was not made with the dagger) the speed attack isn't trying to be "cumulative with a haste spell or similar effect"?

You'd be prohibited from taking both the haste attack and speed attack with the dagger, obviously.

-Hyp.

 

[Scion]

Is there a spell in some wotc book or 3rd party that is higher level, grants abilities like haste, but double? +2 attack, +2 ac and reflex saves, 2 extra attacks on a full attack action? That would be interesting.

Haste is a transmutation, so what exactly is being transmuted for the weapon? is it you? is it being transmuted? is some strange portion of the cosmos?

For the spell it effects the creature, it sounds like the weapon enhancement simply makes the weapon 'faster'. Is it because you, as a character, cannot keep up with the weapon and that is why you cannot use two? Does one somehow interfere with the other?

I know it is magic and there isnt always a rational reason, but somewhere the dm must come up with a description and an answer for 'why'. Does the rules state anything useful oh mighty blue one?

 

[Hypersmurf]

I know it is magic and there isnt always a rational reason, but somewhere the dm must come up with a description and an answer for 'why'. Does the rules state anything useful oh mighty blue one?

Hmm? You mean like an answer for why a sharper weapon means more criticals, and a more skilled wielder means more criticals, but a more skilled wielder with a sharper weapon doesn't mean even more criticals?

It doesn't stack 'cos it says "it doesn't stack". You want justifications, you're on your own.

-Hyp.

 

[Scion]

No, that particular ruling was made because someone decided that his 'special' rules needed to be more 'special' by making crits more 'special'. I really have to resist spiting venom and other such things around that particular rule. Taking away valid choices, that were underpowered to begin with, all to satisfy someones pet houserules-become-official.. bah..

I know that chances are bad of there being an official interpretation that will make sense for this. I was just asking if you had seen anything

 

[hong]

No, that particular ruling was made because someone decided that his 'special' rules needed to be more 'special' by making crits more 'special'. I really have to resist spiting venom and other such things around that particular rule. Taking away valid choices, that were underpowered to begin with, all to satisfy someones pet houserules-become-official.. bah..

It's fascinating how long and hard people will complain about taking choices away that, apparently, were underpowered and thus never used in the first place.

The market for hair shirts must be booming.

 

[Scion]

underpowered? yes. Never used? not even close.

People play the game to have fun, and having a character that can do interesting things that arent always incredibly effective can still be fun.

I have had characters who used the two together, sure I wasnt as great in combat as I could have been, but it was a lot of fun.

Why take out options that were balanced (although a little weak)? There is no point to that besides change for the sake of change, or some useless idiocy. Possibly both.

Some people even took *gasp* skill focus to further their character. Now I know this is shocking, but it has happened! (but of course I've always made it +3 anyway, still not incredible, but useful for the character concept)

 

[Darklone]

I'm with PlaneSailing and Co in this. I know the rules disagree... but the only case where I would agree that it might be overpowered is a rogue with heaps of sneak attack damage...

Btw: To get around Hyps worries about fighting with one weapon of speed and a "slow" weapon... TWF dudes get extra attacks in haste for each weapon they wield (up to HD or level/3 for multiarmed creatures). That gets rid of haste being sooo superior for the anyhow superior twohanded weapon freaks. Full attack actions are the TWF twinks schtick.