Two Hit Monsters

Lackhand

First Post
I'm great with minions: a class of portable scenery makes a lot of sense to me. But there are some monsters which are relatively craven as I imagine them -- your bog-standard goblin or kobold, for instance, shouldn't be much of a menace against a stalwart human armed with a torch or a pitchfork.

I'm pretty sure D&D 4e doesn't have that.

It has the minion goblin & kobold, weighing in at level 1 for both, and then a variety of level 1 members of the race with upwards of twenty hit points each (Goblin blackblade (25), warrior (29), sharpshooter (31, level 2); kobold skirmisher (27), slinger (24), and dragonshield (36, level 2))

That's a little ridiculous! My starting character will likely have in the region of 25 hit points, and I expect to deal about 7-9 points of damage with each attack. With my encounter powers, I'll probably do more like 12 damage.

And here are the "craven" races (not orcs, hobgoblins, or other such tenacious beasties) being pretty equivalent in both damage input and output right out of the gate!

I'm considering ruling either that all kobolds and goblins have vulnerability 10 weapons, or that they simply have fewer hit points, in the neighborhood of half to two-thirds of their current values.

This will obviously give goblins and kobolds less staying power, which will make them less dangerous. To compensate, I'm inclined to throw in an additional minion of the appropriate race per normal member, or perhaps three minions per two normal members.

The advantages are that I get to use more interesting low level challenges without having to accept the new conceit, that goblins or kobolds are indidually as fearsome as an adventuring human, or even in the same league.

Thoughts?
 

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Previous discussion on this topic.

I stick by my solution from that thread:

HP 1

Grunt's Toughness
Grunt has Resist all 5 + 2 * level. Once it has been successfully hit, it loses this resistance and becomes bloodied for the encounter.

Lets you effectively get '2 hit' minions that are taken out by big dailies or critical hits.

At any rate, the non-minion versions of kobolds, goblins, etc are the equivalent of classed races from 3e. Ie, like a blackblade is a rogue 2, sharpshooter a ranger 2, etc. Them being comparable to classed folks is... well, fitting, in that respect.
 

Aldarc said:
You're not facing these monsters alone.
That's not better.
They're not alone either.

They still take 4 or so hits to put out. You can't even kill a goblin with a daily. Not unless you get *truly* lucky.

I'm okay with this for most monsters, but not kobolds or goblins or other such minion-by-species monsters.
 

keterys said:
Previous discussion on this topic.

I stick by my solution from that thread:

HP 1

Grunt's Toughness
Grunt has Resist all 5 + 2 * level. Once it has been successfully hit, it loses this resistance and becomes bloodied for the encounter.

Lets you effectively get '2 hit' minions that are taken out by big dailies or critical hits.

At any rate, the non-minion versions of kobolds, goblins, etc are the equivalent of classed races from 3e. Ie, like a blackblade is a rogue 2, sharpshooter a ranger 2, etc. Them being comparable to classed folks is... well, fitting, in that respect.
Hmm! Good solution. Not quite what I'm looking for, though -- I'm not sure what's wrong with a monsters with, say, 10 hp. Or 15 hp. I do like your solution, it just seems too fiddly.
Mine results in remembering a monsters has 3 hp left, on the other hand, so clearly I'm not coming out as a pure winner... but I still would like to make use of the hp system while I've got it.

And I didn't like 10 hp level 1 fighter kobolds in 3e, either. :)

It's just a little severe that there isn't a class of monster which are meant to be killed with /encounter or /day powers (3d8 average is 13, so something like 16 hp would be a "I can be killed with a daily").

Seems to me like semiclassed goblins -- truly classed goblins get to be even higher level -- are smack dab in that category. There are other monsters there too; if it helps, think of them as halfway between minion and standard, the inverse of elite; interesting powers but they go down quickly, and they come with a free minion to put them into an encounter slot.
 

Fair enough - why not level 0 monsters?

They can follow all the Level + X formula... course, they'd still have between 6 + Con and 10 + Con hp, which would get you 14 to 24 hp probably, which is perhaps more than you want. Suppose they could just literally have half hp and be worth half xp.
 

Lackhand said:
That's not better.
They're not alone either.

They still take 4 or so hits to put out. You can't even kill a goblin with a daily. Not unless you get *truly* lucky.

I'm okay with this for most monsters, but not kobolds or goblins or other such minion-by-species monsters.
Why?
 

Actually, I think I was onto something with the level 0 monsters. So, you have level 0 monsters worth 75 xp and level -1 monsters worth 50 xp.

Example:

Lvl 0 Kobold Skirmisher, XP 75
HP 19, Bloodied 9
AC 14, F 10, R 13, W 12
Spear +5 vs AC; 1d8 dmg

Lvl -1 Kobold Skirmisher, XP 50
HP 11, Bloodied 5
AC 13, F 9, R 12, W 11
Spear +4 vs AC; 1d6 dmg
 


Aldarc said:
Because minions aren't a one-size-fits-all solution.
Because Level 1 Adventurers are still a little special.
Because there has to be something to separate demihumans from the darkness.
Because getting your ass handed to you by 5 goblins isn't a scene I want to run: I want to run getting your ass handed to you by 15 goblins, or by 5 orcs (or few ogres!).

Because kobolds and goblins are the Evil Comic Relief for me, a role which I need something to fill: vaguely ineffectual and malicious individually, but collectively a real racial threat.

Because I want to reward players for using /encounter powers and /daily powers in situations other than boss battles.

Because I want to see what changes.

Why not?
 

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