Two Married Wizards Trying to magically make a Baby Question...

RUMBLETiGER

Adventurer
My group has been running a Pathfinder game for a while, we are all 14th level. I am playing a male tiefling Wizard, another player is playing a female tiefling Wizard, and at a time when the party was offered titles of nobility in a city, my Wizard proposed to the other one. The king married us in a grand ceremony that was crashed later that day by a dragon, etc.

It has been a marriage purely of convenience, no romance. The wife is a LE, patient-but-power-hungry character, the husband (mine) is a LN, by-the-rules, likes-to-make-contracts character. The rest of the party teases us (justifiably) when we level and then privately go off to open our spellbooks and swap spells.

It is within the marriage contract to produce an heir at a time that is convenient. We are currently working to save the multiverse from destruction, not yet convenient.

SO! My question: How might 2 Wizards magically produce a biological descendant infant while skipping the messy conception and pregnancy steps? What creative combination of magical processes would create an offspring that is genetically made up of each of the Wizard parents, and possesses a soul? That would be as much like a naturally created baby, but without the natural steps?


We currently are 2 Wizards that have access to 7th level spells. We're likely to level a few more times before this campaign ends. I'd be willing to consider investing a feat or two toward this since most of the feats I've wanted for this PC, I've taken already. I've taken Limited Wish (and therefore we both have it, swapping spells), granting me access to every other caster class's spells up to level 5.

Bonus points- Due to a carefully worded Wish spell granted at level 5, my Wizard has been Polymorph Any Object'd into a medium sized Bronze Dragon for most of the campaign. It if is possible to have the offspring be part dragon, even better.
 
Well, this is interesting.

I could see an alembic of copper and crystal, gently refluxing a 3-5 gallon volume of specially prepared reagents. This would require at least a blood, and maybe tissue, samples from both of you. Mending and mirror image spells would need to be cast into the solution, as well as cure critical wounds and lesser restoration to help provide the vital spark. Here's where the lesser wish would come in.

Alternatively, you could go the surrogate route. Enter into a three-way pact with a willing surrogate, and use lesser wish, mending, and polymorph other to properly acquire, blend, and implant your essences into the surrogate. The cure critical wounds and lesser restoration may be important with this method, but the living nature of the surrogate may obviate that step.

I would consider a reasonable cost, at least to start, equal to the base alchemical equipment requirements for potion-making and the cost of a one charge wand of simulacrum. That's not what you are doing, of course, but that amount of coin would be a starting point to consider.

As well as the costs, professional, room, and board, of an alchemist and midwife for the requisite 6-12 months this process will take.
 

Eltab

Adventurer
  • How detailed do you want to get at-table?
  • Some divination spells to do prep work beforehand would be in order: discover what is that "vital spark(s)" provided by the male and the female that are needed for a new person to be created.
  • Once you know that, you can design the lab full of appropriate gear, build the equipment, and stock up on supplies.
  • I would go the surrogate route, to avoid the "your character is hors d'combat for the next nine months, Mom" problem.
  • Then you get to deal with all the in-campaign cranks who think you changed your name to Dr. Frankenstein !
 

CapnZapp

Hero
Going off-topic for a second here...

Personally, I'm not seeing how a surrogate would help avoiding the "messy" stages.

I mean, you can create a baby naturally even with no physical contact. There are other ways to hrrm deliver the... male gametes to the womb that does not involve the male wizard's "wand". (Just saying if the two wizards aren't entirely mess-phobic, why not cut out the middle-man woman entirely?)

As for the idea of pregnant heroes, that has been discussed elsewhere. Let me just say that in a game as fanciful as D&D, where a little girl gnome can single-handedly kill a gargantuan dragon (given enough levels), and where "attended objects" are generally immune to harm, I see no reason why a female can't kick ass and take names, even while massively pregnant, all without the tiniest risk to her baby, if none of those realism-issues appeal to the group of players. :)
 
Step Zero is, of course, talk it over with your DM. Ideally, he can set it up as a short series of adventures.

I'd envision it as a three step process.

Step one would be to get a thing to substitute as a womb. Some sort of magical box or bag or bowl, which has, or is rumored to have life-giving or protective properties. A box of keeping your stuff fresh or a bowl that is always filled with healing salve or a bag of assorted fruits or something like that.

Step two would be to collect some parts by which to template the new life from. Obviously, you'll need some blood (and/or possibly flesh) from both 'parents', mostly to fulfill the legal requirements that the heir be "flesh of your flesh and blood of your blood" or whatever. But since you're custom building a baby anyway, you might as well go all out and collect some 'essence of dragon' to ensure that your heir will be extraordinarily strong and 'heart of courage' (whatever that is) to ensure that your heir will have the strength of conviction to always do what needs to be done, and so on. This will require some creativity and a push toward the fantastical as you have to figure out ways to handle these sorts of intangibles.

Step three would be the magical ritual combining all these things, which may be something akin to what @Baron Opal II suggested above, and would ideally incorporate a bit of a party so that there can be a social aspect, and also so that you'll have lots of allies around when assassins from the future (or whoever) inevitably burst in to try to murder your heir before he can kick off whatever prophecy he's destined for.
 

Derren

Adventurer
There are several examples in lore where wizards did experiments to create new races (Owlbears for example I think?). Although some of them did not turn out so well...
So technically it should be possible. Is there still the Clone spell in Pathfinder?
Not sure if you can also add dragon to the mix as I remember right (not sure though) things tend to revert back if killed or detached so you are not a real dragon. And you would have no idea what combination of traits the child will have and it can end up a demon dragon or something like that.

The bigger problem imo and one which would affect your character because of his by the book lawfulness is if the nobility allows for such a magically created child to count as heir or not, especially when you then also throw in completely unrelated DNA into the mix.
It will certainly come up at some point and the legitimacy of your child or your adherence to the contract will be challenged.
 

zztong

Explorer
Is time travel an option? You could shift forward the 1,000,000 years (yeh, that's a guess) it will take for Golarion to reach Starfinder and then have a test-tube baby.
 

RUMBLETiGER

Adventurer
Thanks for all the ideas!

My character has been repeating the mantra all campaign, "Why do things mundanely when you can do it with magic!?"

I hadn't considered the surrogate idea, and I really like it. It might be most easy for the two wizards to just transfer over the genetic contributions into a willing mother. I might go that route.


As I've been pondering this, I've come up with the following so far. This assumes we make it up to 9th level spells, which is likely.

1. Create Greater Demiplane with the minor positive energy trait, faster time trait or timeless (whichever allows the Clone spell to happen better), with a portal to the Positive Energy Plane. Make the demiplane as womb-like and meeting the criteria for a "Lab"referenced in the Clone spell.

2. Cast the Clone spell, using material from both parents instead of one. Otherwise, do the spell as written. Do this in the demiplane. Figure if the process allows for creating an infant body instead of an adult one.

3. Planar Adaptation or similar spell to protect from the harmful effects of the Positive Energy Plane.

4. Locate Creature/Locate Object, whichever spell would succeed in finding a Pre-Incarnate Soul.

5. Figure a way to transfer the Pre-Incarnate Soul into the living, inert baby body.

Some of these steps aren't guaranteed to have the results I want them to have. Using Clone to mix 2 people and make a baby body, finding a way to get a Pre-Incarnate Soul into the living, inert body. For these steps, I'd have both Wizards cast Wish to aid the processes in being more likely to work the way we'd ant them to, and Blood Money for the material component of the Wish spell (and other spells) to add a dash of the biological contribution to the process.
 

Derren

Adventurer
Thanks for all the ideas!

My character has been repeating the mantra all campaign, "Why do things mundanely when you can do it with magic!?"

I hadn't considered the surrogate idea, and I really like it. It might be most easy for the two wizards to just transfer over the genetic contributions into a willing mother. I might go that route.


As I've been pondering this, I've come up with the following so far. This assumes we make it up to 9th level spells, which is likely.

1. Create Greater Demiplane with the minor positive energy trait, faster time trait or timeless (whichever allows the Clone spell to happen better), with a portal to the Positive Energy Plane. Make the demiplane as womb-like and meeting the criteria for a "Lab"referenced in the Clone spell.

2. Cast the Clone spell, using material from both parents instead of one. Otherwise, do the spell as written. Do this in the demiplane. Figure if the process allows for creating an infant body instead of an adult one.

3. Planar Adaptation or similar spell to protect from the harmful effects of the Positive Energy Plane.

4. Locate Creature/Locate Object, whichever spell would succeed in finding a Pre-Incarnate Soul.

5. Figure a way to transfer the Pre-Incarnate Soul into the living, inert baby body.

Some of these steps aren't guaranteed to have the results I want them to have. Using Clone to mix 2 people and make a baby body, finding a way to get a Pre-Incarnate Soul into the living, inert body. For these steps, I'd have both Wizards cast Wish to aid the processes in being more likely to work the way we'd ant them to, and Blood Money for the material component of the Wish spell (and other spells) to add a dash of the biological contribution to the process.
So you want to create some disgusting fleshy/organic womb like realm, put a artificially created body there and infuse it with a soul you summoned from a other dimensions?
That sound super complicated and a reciep for getting some posessed elder god monstrosity to spawn. What could possibly go wrong...
Honestly, that plan could be the plot from an horror anime.

Is the goal to avoid any sexual contact with each other? If not I would suggest to create whatever container the clone spell requires, create the child "naturally" (using a polymorph spell to get around the dragon thing if required) and then teleport the fetus into the clone container and let it grow normally.
To make sure you can also add some spell or magic items which removes the need to eat somehow.

Or if you have access to several wish spells and are willing to use it, why not simply wish for the child in the first place?
 
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Celebrim

Legend
SO! My question: How might 2 Wizards magically produce a biological descendant infant while skipping the messy conception and pregnancy steps? What creative combination of magical processes would create an offspring that is genetically made up of each of the Wizard parents, and possesses a soul? That would be as much like a naturally created baby, but without the natural steps?
Question #1: Would two lawful minded beings ever consider such an nontraditional process as this? Is there anyone you are likely to upset by going about this, up to and including gods of childbirth?

Answer #0: That's entirely up to your DM.

Answer #1: The Clone spell allows you to duplicate yourself. It would seem a simple variant of the spell to produce a being which is not your clone, but composed from the union of the parents flesh. As a DM I would totally allow you to use the Clone spell plus a few weeks of research to at least get the body going. However, as the Clone spell doesn't produce a soul, this wouldn't solve your problem. Also the Clone spell is 8th level, so I got to warn you that what you are asking to do might be beyond your current ability.

Answer #2: The obvious way to go about this would be with some sort of demiplane or time altering magic. Unfortunately, both examples of that are 9th level spells, so as a DM I'm not going to let you create a pocket dimension where you can go spend 9 months being parents before you can cast 9th level spells.

Answer #3: I think conception is the hard step here methodologically speaking. In all the myths I can think of, getting life without going through the natural process is HARD - possibly beyond most deities. But once you have life, sustaining it and maturing it in an alternative way is relatively easy. So what you need is a surrogate parent of some sort. The easiest surrogate parents would be a willing living being. Probably species doesn't even matter that much for the purposes of sustaining it - this is fantasy not real world biology. In my opinion as a DM, it is well within the powers of a Limited Wish to transport a fetus from a willing target to another willing target. So make the baby, and then start spending Limited Wishes until the baby fails a saving throw, to move it to a new home of your choosing. Somewhat more difficult, but still probably within the abilities of a pair of 14th level wizards, is a magical artificial womb. However, I suspect that unless you are provided with the plans for one, the downtime to research and create one will exceed 9 months.

WARNING: Your surrogate mother is likely to have a magical influence over your new kid. So for example, if you move the baby into a willing she-wolf, don't be surprised to have a werewolf for a kid. This probably goes double for your magical artificial womb. Kids born from one of those are probably guaranteed to be autistic savants. You'd be doubling down on your kids lawful parentage.

Answer #4: Make a bargain with someone more powerful than yourself. There are almost certainly greater spirits which, would be more than willing to make some sort of deal by which you give your kid (born or unborn) to them, and they undertake to rear it to whatever life stage you desire in whatever time frame you desire. Beware that the price you pay for such bargains is almost certainly more than you want to pay.

Answer #5: If you can't do this yourself, you probably can manage to go some place you can. There are a nigh infinite number of preexisting demiplanes out there, many of which have time flows that are radically different than the consensus flow of time on the prime material plane. Some of them have time that flows much faster than normal time. Some of them have time that flows much more slowly than normal time. Use divination to determine how to locate a demi-plane with desirable characteristics. Enter the demi-plane, bake the kid in the "oven" in the normal way, and pop back out into the normal time stream a day later. Turn the infant over to an appropriate nanny, and you're done.

Bonus Answer: No, the fact that you can polymorph into a dragon in no fashion whatsoever suggests that the offspring will be part dragon. Now, if you can arrange a deal by which a dragons sterile egg becomes the home of your offspring, and a bronze dragon hatches your kid from an egg, that might make for a distinctly dragonish parentage. Alternatively, if you are going to go the route of a magical conception, no one says that you only have to use two parents. However, be prepared for anything unnatural like that to go SPECTACULARLY badly.
 

Celebrim

Legend
As I've been pondering this, I've come up with the following so far. This assumes we make it up to 9th level spells, which is likely.
I see I got here late.

1. Create Greater Demiplane with the minor positive energy trait, faster time trait or timeless (whichever allows the Clone spell to happen better), with a portal to the Positive Energy Plane. Make the demiplane as womb-like and meeting the criteria for a "Lab"referenced in the Clone spell.
Yes, totally works. I'd allow that. You don't even really need any other steps. Just hop in the demiplane, live there for nine months, pop back out 18 hours later with a new kid.

2. Cast the Clone spell, using material from both parents instead of one. Otherwise, do the spell as written. Do this in the demiplane. Figure if the process allows for creating an infant body instead of an adult one.
Doesn't work as a single step, which you seem to realize. Gets you a inert infant without a soul. Much more work would be required to get the new 'clone' to be ensouled. I'd allow it with suitable research, only because you seem to want to start with reproductive material from two partners that you are just magically putting together. I would not go down the route you are planning if I were you.

3. Planar Adaptation or similar spell to protect from the harmful effects of the Positive Energy Plane.
Beware that you don't create a kid that is overly attached to the Positive Energy Plane in some fashion. Nurture is nature in a magical setting.

4. Locate Creature/Locate Object, whichever spell would succeed in finding a Pre-Incarnate Soul.
Do they exist? Probably depends on the cosmology. But if they do, what you will almost certainly locate is a preincarnate soul, and not one destined to be your kid.

5. Figure a way to transfer the Pre-Incarnate Soul into the living, inert baby body.
This is likely to be all too easy, as there are probably a nigh infinite number of unincarnated souls just waiting for an empty body to possess.
 

RUMBLETiGER

Adventurer
So you want to create some disgusting fleshy/organic womb like realm, put a artificially created body there and infuse it with a soul you summoned from a other dimensions?
That sound super complicated and a reciep for getting some posessed elder god monstrosity to spawn. What could possibly go wrong...
Honestly, that plan could be the plot from an horror anime.

Is the goal to avoid any sexual contact with each other? If not I would suggest to create whatever container the clone spell requires, create the child "naturally" (using a polymorph spell to get around the dragon thing if required) and then teleport the fetus into the clone container and let it grow normally.
To make sure you can also add some spell or magic items which removes the need to eat somehow.

Or if you have access to several wish spells and are willing to use it, why not simply wish for the child in the first place?
Oh, it is absolutely so much more complicated than it needs to be, and totally open for the DM to make something go wrong. Both of those things are part of the fun!

The goal is to accomplish with magic, something that is done mundanely.
 

RUMBLETiGER

Adventurer
As Tiefling Wizards, neither of the good alignment, both parents are open to bending the laws of reality to our whim.

"Lawful" aligns more toward agreed upon social conventions, less to do with respecting the natural order of things.
 

Sabathius42

Adventurer
1. Work with the GM to make a custom Clone spell that merges two source bodies. 3e never mentioned genetics and I've never played Pathfinder I don't think it delves into science like that, but maybe this can be done without something not already on a book.

2. Find an unwilling victim to steal a soul from.

3. Do a Magic Jar swaparoo to switch the victims mind into the clone babies body.

4. Spam Sequester Thoughts on the baby until it has a clean slate.

5. Raise baby.
 

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