Two Monk Tweaks: Unarmed Damage Progression and Flurry of Blows

[FireLance]

I thought of the following tweaks to the monk's class abilities while on the bus home from work today:

1. Unarmed Damage Progression

What: Instead of the current approach whereby the monk's unarmed damage dice goes up every four levels, a monk simply adds half his monk level to his unarmed damage.

Why: It cuts down on the ability to exploit damage dice escalation caused by effects that create real or virtual size changes, e.g. Improved Natural Attack, enlarge, etc.

Balance: A monk will deal more damage on average, especially at lower levels, but will benefit less from effects that effectively change size. Under this system, a Medium 4th-level monk will deal an average of 5.5 points of damage with her unarmed strike and 6.5 when enlarged, compared to the standard monk's 4.5 points going up to 7 when enlarged.

A fighter with Power Attack and a two-handed weapon can get an equal or higher damage bonus by taking a penalty to his attack rolls equal to the difference between his BAB and a monk of the same level. With a one-handed weapon, the monk's damage advantage can be offset by Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization.

2. Flurry of Blows

What: A monk may use flurry of blows with the attack action. However, each attack is made at a further -2 penalty. At 11th level, he may make a second extra attack, but it adds a cumulative -2 penalty, for a total penalty of -4.

Why: One of the major complaints I've heard about the monk is that the flurry of blows ability doesn't synergize well with fast movement. This tweak allows the monk to take advantage of both at the same time.

Balance: If the standard flurry of blows is like Rapid Shot, this additional ability is like Greater Manyshot, and imposes an extra -2 penalty for making an additional attack as a standard action, or a -4 penalty for making two additional attacks. Since the monk eventually ignores the initial penalty for flurry of blows, the penalties for this tweak should be similarly reduced.

What do you think? Would either or both of these tweaks improve the game?

 

[Stalker0]

I like both of these ideas.

At 20th level, a monk does 2d10 + X. (average 11 + X). Now he does 1d6 + 10 + X (avg 13 by X). Better, and more consistent. And as you said, its a much better bump at low levels.

I too came up with an idea to allow a monk to flurry on his normal attack, as it makes it easier for them to move around and still get in damage. I think your idea may work with that pretty well.

 

[Arkhandus]

(Edit: D'oh! Meant to say something else first. Firelance, do you think you'll be continuing your Paladin Project at some point, for more multiclass Paladin types, like Monk/Paladin or whatnot? )

Edited again, for I hate roundabout rules debates, and I hate cluttering peoples' threads with them.

 

[Stalker0]

Well then, the question is does the monk start with its standard d6, or does it stay at the d3?

 

[airwalkrr]

I like the second idea more than the first. In fact, I may yoink it for my games.

 

[FireLance]

Well then, the question is does the monk start with its standard d6, or does it stay at the d3?

I guess I should have made it explicit that I'd been using the standard 1d6 for monks (the damage examples were without Strength or other damage bonuses added).

Firelance, do you think you'll be continuing your Paladin Project at some point, for more multiclass Paladin types, like Monk/Paladin or whatnot?

I have a few vague ideas for a paladin/monk, a paladin/ranger and a paladin/sorcerer, but I haven't sat down to flesh them out fully because of the following reasons:

1. Real-life work and family commitments
2. My wife recently got me hooked on Kingdom Hearts on the PS2 (I'm several years late, I know)
3. A few other D&D-related projects that I flit between as the mood strikes me (fleshing out a campaign setting, fleshing out an adventure-path type campaign for a solo paladin PC, feats to enhance a paladin's lay on hands class ability, an analysis of combat between a CR 8 stone giant and various combinations of 8th-level PCs)
4. WotC has come up with some good paladin multiclass feats (Ascetic Knight, and the Devoted X series from Complete Adventurer) and PrCs (Shadowbane Stalker from Complete Adventurer makes a good paladin/rogue, Argent Fist from Faiths of Eberron makes a good paladin/monk), so the need for multiclass paladin types isn't so compelling now

That said, if there's anything in particular you'd like to see, you can PM me or post in this thread, and I'll get my act together and post something.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Use the unarmed Swordsage variant instead.

If you need a big hit, there are maneuvers for that, if you want to do E. Honda's hundred handslap, there are maneuvers for that too.

 

[DungeonMaester]

I thought of the following tweaks to the monk's class abilities while on the bus home from work today:

1. Unarmed Damage Progression

What: Instead of the current approach whereby the monk's unarmed damage dice goes up every four levels, a monk simply adds half his monk level to his unarmed damage.

Why: It cuts down on the ability to exploit damage dice escalation caused by effects that create real or virtual size changes, e.g. Improved Natural Attack, enlarge, etc.

Balance: A monk will deal more damage on average, especially at lower levels, but will benefit less from effects that effectively change size. Under this system, a Medium 4th-level monk will deal an average of 5.5 points of damage with her unarmed strike and 6.5 when enlarged, compared to the standard monk's 4.5 points going up to 7 when enlarged.

A fighter with Power Attack and a two-handed weapon can get an equal or higher damage bonus by taking a penalty to his attack rolls equal to the difference between his BAB and a monk of the same level. With a one-handed weapon, the monk's damage advantage can be offset by Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization.

1) Adding half his class level, rather then gaining extra dice will cause 20th level monks to be doing the same amount of damage as Bards. At 20th level, a monk will have 1d6+10+str+feats/cb that will add up to 20 or so damage a hit, while the 20th level fighter is dealing 60+ as to where if you exploit the dice damage, at 20th level, a monk can do 16d6 (or even 32d6) a attack.

2) Monks cant exploit the damage dice by size? Is there rules so Wizards and Sorcs can exploit Meta and fighters can explaoit feats?

2. Flurry of Blows

What: A monk may use flurry of blows with the attack action. However, each attack is made at a further -2 penalty. At 11th level, he may make a second extra attack, but it adds a cumulative -2 penalty, for a total penalty of -4.

Why: One of the major complaints I've heard about the monk is that the flurry of blows ability doesn't synergize well with fast movement. This tweak allows the monk to take advantage of both at the same time.

Balance: If the standard flurry of blows is like Rapid Shot, this additional ability is like Greater Manyshot, and imposes an extra -2 penalty for making an additional attack as a standard action, or a -4 penalty for making two additional attacks. Since the monk eventually ignores the initial penalty for flurry of blows, the penalties for this tweak should be similarly reduced.

1) What: Trying giving a Monk a Full Bab with twf. The reults may surprize you.
2) Why: Doesn't sync well? Who else can tumble 45 feet as a free action then take a full round attack?
3) Balance: See Question 1.

What do you think? Would either or both of these tweaks improve the game?

Personaly, no. It would make monks clunky to play. (meaning, to much diving into the rules every time its the monk's turn) with out improving him at all.

---Rusty

 

[FireLance]

1) Adding half his class level, rather then gaining extra dice will cause 20th level monks to be doing the same amount of damage as Bards. At 20th level, a monk will have 1d6+10+str+feats/cb that will add up to 20 or so damage a hit, while the 20th level fighter is dealing 60+ as to where if you exploit the dice damage, at 20th level, a monk can do 16d6 (or even 32d6) a attack.

I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that monks will be doing the same amount of damage as bards. Using core rules only, a 20th-level bard could get a +4 morale bonus to damage from his bardic music, and would probably have access to a +5 weapon, but a monk can also benefit from an enhancement bonus to his unarmed strike from an amulet of mighty fists, potion of greater magic fang/oil of greater magic weapon, or a spell from a friendly spellcaster. If the monk is on the same side as the bard, the bard's inspire courage will increase his damage, too.

As for the comparison with the fighter, I don't see the need for the monk to out-damage the fighter on a blow for blow basis. I'd like the experience of playing a monk in combat to feel different from the experience of playing a fighter in combat, and I think the ability to make multiple melee attacks while exploiting his superior speed will give him an interesting niche.

Personaly, no. It would make monks clunky to play. (meaning, to much diving into the rules every time its the monk's turn)

Again, I'm not sure how you have arrived at this conclusion. Damage per attack can be worked out in advance, as should the attack bonuses under each of the various options. Even if it is not, -2 to hit for an additional attack, or -4 for two additional attacks isn't too difficult to remember. I doubt it would slow down the game more than say, the current incarnation of Power Attack.

 

[Quartz]

Arkhandus, you do realise that the monk can take Power Attack and other combat feats as well, don't you?

A high level monk might well have Power Attack, Weapon Focus, etc, especially if he's taken a couple of levels of fighter.

And can you cast Greater Magic Weapon on a monk's fists?