Two Monk Tweaks: Unarmed Damage Progression and Flurry of Blows

[FireLance]

And can you cast Greater Magic Weapon on a monk's fists?

Yes. "A monk's unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

 

[Arkhandus]

Edited, for I hate roundabout rules debates, and I hate cluttering peoples' threads with them.

 

[Quartz]

Oh sure, a monk can take Power Attack and all that jazz. If he wants to miss repeatedly in every combat. With his mediocre Base Attack Bonus and multiple ability score dependency..

Sorry. I disagree. A monk has the second-best BAB, topping at +15. But consider a Monk 7 / Ftr 2. BAB +7/+2, or Flurry +6/+6/+1. Greater Magic Weapon from his 9th level mage colleague gives him +2 to hit and damage (he could equally be using monkish weapons). A potion of Bull's Strength gives him +4 Str and +2 to hit and damage. Let's give him a 14 Str to start with. So he attacks at +13/+6 or +12/+12/+5 for 1d8+6. Plenty of room for Power Attack and Combat Expertise. That's under SRD rules (plus PHB2 for MWM). And there are other buffs too, like a Bard singing. Or special effects on the monk's weapon.

Let's make the monk a Ftr 4 / Mk 16. He'll have Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Power Attack, and Melee Weapon Mastery for +3/+4. BAB is +16/+11/+6/+1, or flurrying at +16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1 for a base of 2d8. A Greater Magic Weapon gives him +5 (pity you can't Empower it). He now has an Inherent +5 bonus to Str (now 19), and +6 Enhancement items (so Str 25 [+7]). So he's flurrying at +31/+31/+31/+26/+21/+16 for 2d8+17. Not too shabby at all. And plenty of room for Power Attack. Again, other feats and magic may modify this.

 

[Arkhandus]

Edited, for I hate roundabout rules debates, and I hate cluttering peoples' threads with them.

 

[Quartz]

Also, PH2 hasn't been around very long. And, not all monks multiclass into fighter, let alone ones that are sticking with the basic flavor of monks (which doesn't mesh with diverting into other training and forsaking their pursuit of enlightenment); it's also not very in-character for random fighters to multiclass into monk all of a sudden in most cases (or to invest in WF/WS - unarmed strike without already being a monk).

You know, I don't understand this aversion to multiclassing. You want inner development? Take levels in Monk. You want combat feats? Take levels in Fighter. Etc. So you don't get to 20th level in your preferred class by L20; so what?

Also: not all casters get Greater Magic Weapon. Some arcane casters don't learn it (or have Transmutation as a banned school, though that's rare).

The monk could equally have been using a pair of kama or something.

Anyway, you've given me an idea for a new magic item. Hehehe

 

[Arkhandus]

Edited away. Dunno if Quartz sees my point or not, but oh well. Not trying to change his point of view anyway.

 

[Quartz]

Hmm... as I see it, monks should focus on Con first, Str second, Wis OR Dex third, Int 10+, Dex OR Wis 5th, and Cha is the dump stat.

As for paladins, there's little reason to stay in the class after L4. You get crap spells and poor abilities. Better to multiclass with fighter, knight, or monk and then go for something like Divine Crusader.

Even at low levels, consider how useful a Human Ftr 1 / Mk 1 can be.

1 F1 1 10 2/0/0 Weapon Focus: Weapon of choice (G), Power Attack (F), Combat Expertise (H)
2 M1 1 16 4/2/2 Improved Grapple (M), Improved Unarmed Strike (M),

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Skipping all the extra stuff... Firelance, I like these tweaks, and will toss them toward my player who is considering playing a monk in my upcoming campaign..

These would add to my current Monk tweaks of:
- Monks get a number of 'weapon slots' as 'monk weapons' instead of the asian themed weapons. They can burn these on armor {1 points for Medium, 2 points for Heavy}. THey gain additional slots as they advance. Four slots at first level, +1 at 3rd/6th/etc..
- Monks use either the monk weapon damage or thier unarmed damage, whichever is highest
- Monks can multiclass freely

I think these rules put the monk farther into a different style than 'unarmed fighter with really good saves'.. I like!

 

[Arkhandus]

As for paladins, there's little reason to stay in the class after L4. You get crap spells and poor abilities. Better to multiclass with fighter, knight, or monk and then go for something like Divine Crusader.

Quick final note: Obviously the source of our dispute is simply rules. You are emphasizing the metagamey powergamey aspect, and I am concerned with the roleplaying concept primarily. Thematically, monks and paladins are classes that would rarely multiclass because of RP reasons; similarly, monks would thematically emphasize Wisdom and either Constitution or Dexterity, followed by Intelligence, with Charisma as least important and Strength also of low importance.

I certainly agree with you on a rules-oriented standpoint, Quartz, regarding the two classes. They are best off just multiclassing moderately or significantly, from a rules perspective. I have no problem with powergaming, but I do prefer to focus on RP aspects first and foremost (most of the time anyway).

 

[Quartz]

Quick final note: Obviously the source of our dispute is simply rules. You are emphasizing the metagamey powergamey aspect, and I am concerned with the roleplaying concept primarily.

Not quite: I'm trying to point out that multiclassing is built into the system. I wouldn't call it powergaming, I'd call it mechanical: you can get much cheesier! Indeed, rampant multiclassing often makes for a character that is much weaker in the character's primary focus, but more rounded and more capable in situations outside the character's primary focus. Characters which are spellcasters are the obvious example here.

Thematically, monks and paladins are classes that would rarely multiclass because of RP reasons;

I cannot agree here. Remember that many of the monk's abilities can be used in armour. Indeed, I think the very title of 'monk' is a bit of a misnomer: I prefer to think of the class, at least at low levels, as 'Disciplined Warrior' - the opposite of the Barbarian, if you will. Similarly, one can recast the low-level Paladin as the 'Warrior with Divine Backing'. In each case, I'd suggest that multiclassing with other warrior classes is entirely appropriate