3PP Release Two New Releases! The Disciple Class and Twists of Fate

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
All that is simply features of Homebrewery by Natural Crit which is our editor of choice at the moment, credited inside.

We have taken all necessary precautions to insure that no O5E trademark or copyright material has been used to create this.
Trade dress is protected, although I’m aware that WotC doesn’t currently appear to regulate it.
 

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TheRoguesCollection

third-party publisher
Trade dress is protected, although I’m aware that WotC doesn’t currently appear to regulate it.
Mainly, the reason they are not protected is because the graphics utilized are not Distinctive under Trade Dress law, especially since it lacks any of the identifying features like the D&D logo or distinctive fonts, as well as being commonly available to the industry for free, That being said, we have been considering omitting the graphic on future releases, as we think we can do even better with our covers in the future.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Mainly, the reason they are not protected is because the graphics utilized are not Distinctive under Trade Dress law, especially since it lacks any of the identifying features like the D&D logo or distinctive fonts, as well as being commonly available to the industry for free, That being said, we have been considering omitting the graphic on future releases, as we think we can do even better with our covers in the future.
I’m not your lawyer, and you don’t need to defend your actions to me. However, I will say as a publisher of many years that I would not be comfortable relying on this legal argument should it come to it. But that’s your business.

We are a little more concerned about A5E compatibility logo licensed products D&D trade dress though. We are discussing updates to the licensing language to address that.

From a more practical POV, and I know this is unsolicited advice, I also feel it behooves you to develop your own trade dress rather than borrowing someone else’s. That branding would benefit you in the long run.
 

xiphumor

Hero
While it is true, it doesn't necessarily fit as a "martial" in the traditional sense. We view is much like the Savant class in a sense with their tricks. That being said, it could definitely be cool seeing some of these abilities turned into Maneuvers!
In general, with the Disciples ability to recover tempo on a dodge action, we feel that tying that to exertion would likely end with them being too powerful in general.
So first of all, welcome to the community! It’s been a bit since we’ve had a major 3rd party release, and I’m always happy to see more people getting into A5e. I’m excited to see everything you’re going to bring to the table!

Second, having looked over the Disciple briefly, I do think I have three major points of feedback, one of which has already been referenced:

1. Combat Maneuvers. I say this as someone who loves the savant class, which as you observed also doesn’t get maneuvers and was also ported over from O5e more directly than the other official classes. That being said, savants still get the option to have combat maneuvers, so if they miss out on that part of the game, it’s by player choice. Also, the savant’s appeal is as a skill monkey, whereas the Disciple is clearly combat oriented.

2. Social and Exploration play. To me, a hallmark of an A5e class is strong support for non-combat play built into the class. E.g. for the fighter, Steely Mein, Martial Lore, Reputation, and War’s Toll all ensure that the fighter has interesting social abilities, as well as getting five Soldiering Knacks over the course of their career, including one at 1st level. In contrast, the Disciple doesn’t seem to have any non-combat features aside from Mystic Senses, which are still pretty combat focused for the most part and are very few and far between. I just don’t see the Disciple getting to do much outside of a fight.

3. Maybe it’s just me, but I’m having a hard time conceptualizing what story this class is supposed to be telling, or coming up with an example of a fictional character who would be best represented this way. Maybe you can help me here; what tropes inspired this class, and what niche is it trying to fill?
 

TheRoguesCollection

third-party publisher
So first of all, welcome to the community! It’s been a bit since we’ve had a major 3rd party release, and I’m always happy to see more people getting into A5e. I’m excited to see everything you’re going to bring to the table!

Second, having looked over the Disciple briefly, I do think I have three major points of feedback, one of which has already been referenced:

1. Combat Maneuvers. I say this as someone who loves the savant class, which as you observed also doesn’t get maneuvers and was also ported over from O5e more directly than the other official classes. That being said, savants still get the option to have combat maneuvers, so if they miss out on that part of the game, it’s by player choice. Also, the savant’s appeal is as a skill monkey, whereas the Disciple is clearly combat oriented.

2. Social and Exploration play. To me, a hallmark of an A5e class is strong support for non-combat play built into the class. E.g. for the fighter, Steely Mein, Martial Lore, Reputation, and War’s Toll all ensure that the fighter has interesting social abilities, as well as getting five Soldiering Knacks over the course of their career, including one at 1st level. In contrast, the Disciple doesn’t seem to have any non-combat features aside from Mystic Senses, which are still pretty combat focused for the most part and are very few and far between. I just don’t see the Disciple getting to do much outside of a fight.

3. Maybe it’s just me, but I’m having a hard time conceptualizing what story this class is supposed to be telling, or coming up with an example of a fictional character who would be best represented this way. Maybe you can help me here; what tropes inspired this class, and what niche is it trying to fill?
Happy to give some feedback on questions!

In General, The Disciple is a class we've really enjoyed in O5E and we took as an opportunity to spread that to those who might find it interesting as well.

In general, the idea behind the Disciple is a wisdom-focused martial, similar in concept to what goes on in the Monk class, but with a harder focus on Wisdom, rather than Dexterity. Through the Sublime Disciplines system you slowly build up a bunch of interesting abilities that you're able to use quite often using Tempo, a resource you can get back quite easily by using a bonus action and dodging. Theres a ton of Sublime Disciplines to choose from, and as you level up, not only do you get access to new abilities from each one you have, you also get the opportunity to get even more, which leads to you crafting a character that can switch between these styles quite readily, especially as character development. Eventually getting access to up to 20 distinct abilities that can be used very readily. We're not quite sure what a theoretical version of this class would look like featuring Combat Maneuvers. Though we do know that it would take an extensive overhaul to do so. While that may be on the table for a future redesign, we believe that players will be more than satisfied in general with the expanse of abilities and options they get access too.

Our additions are admittedly not comprehensive, as this was technically our first delve into content for A5E, having been delayed in approval. Our additions include the Mystic Senses, as well as some extra features around the 9/10th level from the original class, among others changes for balance purposes here and there.

Out of combat is definitely a weakness with The Disciple, which is something we'd like to consider changing in the future, though considering their kit in general, it can be hard to find where exactly to place such a thing without overloading the kit. We're very open to suggestions however.

In general in the terms of fictional characters, direct inspirations for the class include Irelia(League of Legends) and Byakuya Kuchiki(Bleach) with the Journey of the Collector Archetype, while other connections can be drawn to characters seen like the warriors from Ta Lo (Shang-Chi and the Legend of the 10 Rings), and Jedi/Sith(Star Wars) with the focus on superior perception and semi-magical abilities in conjunction with sacred fighting forms.

The story in general is of characters whose perception goes beyond that of the physical, utilizing magical energies non-traditionally to give them their edge in combat.
 

xiphumor

Hero
Happy to give some feedback on questions!

In General, The Disciple is a class we've really enjoyed in O5E and we took as an opportunity to spread that to those who might find it interesting as well.

In general, the idea behind the Disciple is a wisdom-focused martial, similar in concept to what goes on in the Monk class, but with a harder focus on Wisdom, rather than Dexterity. Through the Sublime Disciplines system you slowly build up a bunch of interesting abilities that you're able to use quite often using Tempo, a resource you can get back quite easily by using a bonus action and dodging. Theres a ton of Sublime Disciplines to choose from, and as you level up, not only do you get access to new abilities from each one you have, you also get the opportunity to get even more, which leads to you crafting a character that can switch between these styles quite readily, especially as character development. Eventually getting access to up to 20 distinct abilities that can be used very readily. We're not quite sure what a theoretical version of this class would look like featuring Combat Maneuvers. Though we do know that it would take an extensive overhaul to do so. While that may be on the table for a future redesign, we believe that players will be more than satisfied in general with the expanse of abilities and options they get access too.

Our additions are admittedly not comprehensive, as this was technically our first delve into content for A5E, having been delayed in approval. Our additions include the Mystic Senses, as well as some extra features around the 9/10th level from the original class, among others changes for balance purposes here and there.

Out of combat is definitely a weakness with The Disciple, which is something we'd like to consider changing in the future, though considering their kit in general, it can be hard to find where exactly to place such a thing without overloading the kit. We're very open to suggestions however.

In general in the terms of fictional characters, direct inspirations for the class include Irelia(League of Legends) and Byakuya Kuchiki(Bleach) with the Journey of the Collector Archetype, while other connections can be drawn to characters seen like the warriors from Ta Lo (Shang-Chi and the Legend of the 10 Rings), and Jedi/Sith(Star Wars) with the focus on superior perception and semi-magical abilities in conjunction with sacred fighting forms.

The story in general is of characters whose perception goes beyond that of the physical, utilizing magical energies non-traditionally to give them their edge in combat.
Okay, so glancing at things, if I were in charge of overhauling this class for A5e, I think my main idea would be to make it more similar to the adept and actually break up the Sublime Disciplines into individual features akin to focus features so that you don’t make your last interesting choice at Level 9, albeit with level prerequisites and also prerequisites that you must have certain earlier choices so that the theming remains in place. Likewise, I would probably convert tempo to exertion (which would NOT be 1:1) and then give the Disciple bonus exertion, again similar to the adept. I would probably ditch fighting styles to help make room for maneuvers. I’m not certain what the ultimate fate of the dodge recharge mechanic would be under such circumstances.

I would also make at least one mystic sense that themed with each of the sublime disciplines but which offered benefits that were more obviously useful in a social/exploration context. I would likely use the herald as a model, giving them seven mystic senses total, but maybe starting a level earlier since divine sense sort of acts as the herald’s first divine lesson. I would probably also throw some social features into the level progression at levels 3, 7, 11, and 15 or so.

Oh, btw, I would also clean up some things, such as definitely swapping out DM (which I think is another WotC term you’re not supposed to legally use anyway) for Narrator and cleaning up the class progression table, which still has things like Blindsense and Ageless Body.
 

xiphumor

Hero
Oh, also, the destinies in Twists of Fate seem kind of unbalanced to me. E.g. Enlightenment granting truesight or Redemption ending all conditions and effects seem way too strong, especially considering that characters can have access to these features at level 1.

For context, the Philosopher savant from GPG 18 grants the ability to use the inspiration feature from their destiny once between short and long rests without spending inspiration at Level 2.

Also, does the Activist fulfillment feature just grant potentially infinite followers? Because it reads like that. And the Enlightenment fulfillment feature is just strictly better than the official Knowledge fulfillment feature.

I could probably come up with more points if I spent the time, but from what I’ve seen so far, I think I simply wouldn’t permit this source at my table as it currently stands.
 

PJ Coffey

PJ Coffey (they/them)
Happy to give some feedback on questions!

In General, The Disciple is a class we've really enjoyed in O5E and we took as an opportunity to spread that to those who might find it interesting as well.

I really love the concept of Rogues and doing cool Dex based stuff.

I think the pushback you're getting is because it sounds like you haven't grasped what A5e is about. It's a game that you can run with no problems if you know 5e but there's more to it.

I think that there's a lot of scope for a Wisdom based martial but whilst the Savant is a beloved class of Adventures in Zeitgeist, none of the rest of the extensive range of existing EN Publishing classes have made the leap over. That's because it's very hard to incorporate the support for exploration and social which are expected.

It's a little unfair on the Narrator to make them learn new mechanics to support just one player.

Are you on Discord? Maybe we could have a chat about some ideas there? Help you see the philosophy? Only if you want!
 



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