Two pounce versions?

[Dark Dragon]

Recently I got the MM II and found a different (more realistic) version of the pounce ability (see the Jarilith and the Swamplight lynx in the MM II). From the SRD:

Pounce (Ex): If a leopard leaps upon a foe during the first round of combat, it can make a full attack even if it has already taken a move action.

What does "first round of combat" mean? Can the creature make ONLY one pounce attack per combat (and lose that option if it enters the fight in the second round)? Or one pounce per opponent when beginning a fight with him?
The version from the MM II is quite clear: when the creature charges, it can pounce. Period.
So, is the old version in the MM I replaced?

 

[starkad]

My instinctive responce, and this is just my opinion and by no means official, is the first round it engages in melee...

So it could start the combat a long distance away, run up and have its full round attack on top of the full move.

That's the way I have used it thus far at least.. And when you hit that in a surprise round on flat-footed PCs, watchout!

 

[Aaron2]

ELH

The entry for the Tayellah in the ELH also has the "first round of combat" nonsense. I like the "when charging" better.


Aaron

 

[kreynolds]

the first round it engages in melee...

Sounds good to me.

 

[Pielorinho]

The "when charging" wording is much more powerful than the "first round of combat" wording. But it's also a lot less ambiguous (can you pounce during the surprise round? what about during the first round, if you were able to act during the surprise round? What if, for some reason, the initiative count begins while the opponents are unable to access each other?)

I'd suggest (and this is clearly a house rule) sticking with the "when charging" wording for all pouncing creatures, but adding in one of two caveats:

-Weak caveat: a pouncing creature incurs an attack of opportunity from its target.
-Strong caveat: a pouncing creature loses its dex bonus during any round in which it pounces; this loss lasts until its next turn.

I think the weak caveat would be enough to balance out the increase in power to pouncing; if not, you oculd go for the strong caveat, which would make pouncing dangerous indeed. In either case, this allows for the stock cinematically-accepted response to being pounced: you hold up your sword and impale the pouncer on its tip.

Daniel

 

[IceBear]

Well, keep in mind that most creatures with the pounce ability don't have the intelligence to do multiple pounces in a round anyway, so for the most part it would still be the "first round of combat".

Also, since it HAS to charge to pounce (as opposed to just moving before) the charging restrictions also apply to pouncing.

I'd probably go with the new ruling as it's less ambiguous than the old, and it's been more or less how it has occurred in my games anyway (cat running out and pouncing on someone and then the fight is conducted pretty much as normal).

IceBear

 

[Wolf72]

a bunch of monsters may not be smart enough to keep running and pouncing, but they can certainly charge after felling their current opponent ...

or would that be considered a seperate combat?

 

[Dr. Zoom]

I prefer the "when charging" way in the MM2. And I think it makes those animals or monsters as dangerous as they should be.

 

[Pielorinho]

I prefer the "when charging" way in the MM2. And I think it makes those animals or monsters as dangerous as they should be.

Well, keep in mind that tigers are already fantastic animal companions for druids -- if you allow them to pounce whenever charging, they become even better. That's why I think this new ruling should be balanced with a danger to it.

Daniel
Proud player of a druid with a tiger companion

 

[skymage]

first of all don't you get to make an AoA against a person that is charging. they are running into a 5' square that you threaten right?

so if that is true a punce is a charge followed by a full attack.

move at least 10' up to a max of 2*movment followed by a full attack with a +2 attack -2 ac for the round. and certain weapons

seems simple enough to me. i was glade when they changed punce in MM II. that's how i understand it, and that's how i play it.