D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

[Maxperson]

Again, how is this not telling people that your imaginary friends are more important than their feelings? They're "allowed" to tell you that they don't like something and that something makes them feel unwelcome in the hobby, but, are not "allowed" to ask you to change it? Seriously?

If someone is offended by the color green, do you feel that person is entitled to ask me not to ever wear green if there's a chance that they could see it?

 

[Hussar]

If someone is offended by the color green, do you feel that person is entitled to ask me not to ever wear green if there's a chance that they could see it?

And, see, this is what @Mercurius is talking about with sticking with the middle. This is blatantly a straw man and, frankly, pretty bloody tone deaf considering the issue at hand.

Now, if wearing green had been used to discount your humanity for centuries and used as a justification for any number of inhumane and horrid actions against people who look like you, would you still defend wearing green?

See, instead of talking about hypotheticals and engaging in all sorts of whataboutits, how about we actually stick to the issue at hand. Everyone agrees that the description of orcs mirrors racial screeds. Is anyone disagreeing with that? Is anyone denying that? People have told you, in no uncertain terms, that they find the use of this language offensive and harms their enjoyment of the game and the hobby and they would like that language removed from the game.

What do you do?

 

[Maxperson]

And, see, this is what @Mercurius is talking about with sticking with the middle. This is blatantly a straw man and, frankly, pretty bloody tone deaf considering the issue at hand.

It's not a Strawman of any sort. My question pertains to why you are getting what Frogreaver has been saying so wrong. He's talking about things that are inoffensive or not intended to offend, offending people.

So with that in mind, "If someone is offended by the color green, do you feel that person is entitled to ask me not to ever wear green if there's a chance that they could see it?"

 

[Hussar]

It's not a Strawman of any sort. My question pertains to why you are getting what Frogreaver has been saying so wrong. He's talking about things that are inoffensive or not intended to offend, offending people.

So with that in mind, "If someone is offended by the color green, do you feel that person is entitled to ask me not to ever wear green if there's a chance that they could see it?"

Then, if you're right, and he is talking about that, then why bring it up at all? No one is discussing things that are so inoffensive offending people. You are basically just dismissing people's concerns by labeling them so inoffensive that no one should be bothered.

But, that's not what's going on here. It's been repeatedly demonstrated that the language surrounding orcs in D&D mirrors the language used to dehumanize various people's at various points in history. You're simply brushing that away by claiming that it's "not offensive".

People are FLAT OUT TELLING YOU that it's offensive. The people about whom these racist phrases were used to describe are TELLING YOU that these are problematic. Why do you feel that you are in such a position that you can simply say, "No, these aren't racist. You're wrong and your feelings are wrong." ?

Again, real people are telling you that the language used is making them uncomfortable and fell unwelcome in the hobby. What do you do? Do you stick to your guns and tell them that their feelings are not real and they're just making it all up and they should just suck it up, or do you actually listen to them and change the wording?

No more hypotheticals. No more "Whatabout?" Answer the question. People are telling you, flat out, that this language makes them uncomfortable and feel unwelcome. What are you going to do about it?

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm sorry, but, how am I putting words in your mouth. You flat out stated that if I'm taking offense, you are the one who gets to determine if I've take "enough" offense. The fact of me telling you that X makes me uncomfortable isn't enough. I have to tell you that X makes me uncomfortable and you have to agree.

Do you not see how bad that is?

I'm sorry to keep harping on this, but, what, EXACTLY, does this:



mean?

See, you seem to be taking it personally. It's not. No one is saying YOU are being offensive. This is where @Oofta keeps missing the point. It's NOT ABOUT YOU. You, the person using X are not the important part of the equation. Frankly, you don't matter here. What matters is someone is telling you that X bothers them and makes them uncomfortable. Now, the ball is back in your court. You have a decision to make. Is it more important to you to keep X unchanged or is it more important to listen to the real life people who are telling you that X is a problem?

Apparently, this is a more difficult decision that I seem to think.

I will not take the bait no matter how aggressive, hostile and incorrect about my position you are.

For everyone else here is the pertinent part of my post:

“The way to come together is to acknowledge that symbols are subjective and have different meanings to everyone. To those that are offended by a symbol stop assuming that the only use of it is to offend. To those that use a symbol stop assuming others oppose the non-racist reason you are using the symbol.”

 

[Maxperson]

But, that's not what's going on here. It's been repeatedly demonstrated that the language surrounding orcs in D&D mirrors the language used to dehumanize various people's at various points in history. You're simply brushing that away by claiming that it's "not offensive".

It doesn't mirror it at all. The orc language is being stretched to sort of resemble it.

Again, real people are telling you that the language used is making them uncomfortable and fell unwelcome in the hobby. What do you do?

Me? I wouldn't use orcs if they offended someone in my group. I wouldn't ask that orcs as they currently are be taken away from everyone else.

 

[Hussar]

This is unbelievable.

You are telling people who are being offended by something, that they should ignore the fact that the symbol is offensive to them because the person using that symbol doesn't mean to be offensive?

Are you serious?

 

[FrogReaver]

This is unbelievable.

You are telling people who are being offended by something, that they should ignore the fact that the symbol is offensive to them because the person using that symbol doesn't mean to be offensive?

Are you serious?

Still not taking the bait.

To everyone else this is what was actually said:

“IMO those that take offense at someone regardless of the intention of the other should learn how to avoid such perceived offense or learn ways of dealing with it. One way is to voice your perception without demanding the other change their actions.”

 

[Hussar]

I just realized something. I'm a little slow and thick sometimes, so, it does take a while. This conversation is entirely pointless. WotC has already taken a stand and made its decision. And that decision is that the feelings of those who feel that the language makes them feel bad are more important than people's imaginary friends.

Those that are arguing otherwise are basically just whistling in the wind. They can't change anything and, just like every other time this sort of thing has come up, once the dust settles and things move on, they're going to be relegated to the same dustbin that is home to those who defended chainmail bikinis and various other opinions that have kept our hobby from being more inclusive.

It's a good day. Let's just appreciate the win.

 

[FrogReaver]

So now that the @Hussar episode is over lets get back to the thread topic.