Typical Player Behavior, or Bad Roleplaying?

[swrushing]

Lastly -- I never said that the plot depends upon the PCs rescuing their old friend. Not at all. Actually, in some ways it'd be more convenient if they didn't because I don't have a really clear idea of how to run a "running battle against the evil government" campaign (though I could if it ends up going that way). I just think IT'S BAD ROLEPLAYING FOR THE CLERIC OF THE "SUPREME GOD OF GOOD" NOT TO WANT TO RESCUE THE PERSON WHO GENEROUSLY GAVE HER ALL HER MAGIC ITEMS.
Jason

Ok, let me be blunt. The variety of comments you have made on this thread makes it look, maybe just to me, like you are working from a position of an "Upset GM looking for payback" and not from the perspective of a normal GM looking to run a good game or a fun story. Don't take this too far and think I am describing you as a frothing killer GM kinda thing but when you say things like how you "cant let him get away with it" and such you come off as working from emotion over am incident not from a calmer place more focused on playing and running an enjoyable game.

I reallt think if you could say to yourself "hey, it was a bad call on my part to let him run both at the same time. live and learn. now whats fun for next session..." then both you and your players will be having more fun than if you pursue this and let even a little of your own personal upset and frustration guide your in game choices.

Right now, your mindset appears to ve running in a DM VS PLAYER mode and thats not a good relationship to ever foster.

So, have the other players complained or been upset about this? Is this a problem for anyone else? If not, then I really suggest working from their perspective until you get over your emotion over this.

Basically, the Cleric of the Supreme God of Good is the only person who has to obey anything like an "alignment." When the player chose to play that character I told him that, as a secret between me & him, his god was the only "true" good god in the pantheon and that he would get certain bonuses if he roleplayed it properly.

Jason

Here is a key point.

you promised the player that his character would recieve BONUSES if he roleplayed it properly.

So, if you don't feel he roleplayed it properly, hold back those bonuses.

Thats living up to your promises, to your stated agreement.

Thats setting up his god as one who uses positive rewards for making the "good" choices. Thats cool.

Thats also a far sight difference from a god who punishes people for choosing differently. See, this guy didn't do evil, he didn't go rob an orphanage or kill innocents... he just chose to not do the right thing. So he certainly doesn't deserve bonuses for doing good but he also isn't in the deserves punishment for doing evil.

Holding back on bonuses... cool! Good GMing
launching into various punishments so he doesn't "get away with it", bad GMing.

Now what I might do is continue to withhold bonuses for a while. Presumably at some point the player will realize these bonuses are gone and ask why. At which point As GM I would say "hmm... well if your character doesn't know then maybe some sort of communion ritual or talking to a higher priest could help." and the net result would be a little religiosity and ritual later the CHARACTER gets the knowledge that his god prefers his priests to save people in situations like that and that cgoices such as what he did were simply not what the god considers worthy of "bonuses for good behavior." This keeps the focus in character and where you and he already have an agreement... bonuses for good behavior and roleplaying it well. Bonuses that have to be earned.

Of course, what follows is up to him and you, as the god, but some quest or penance part of which could be forgoeing the gains from the inappropriate act. After all, as long as he still choose to profit from it, he is obviously not repentant. Doing servicez for the old character's church, doing things to help the old character's family, etc all can be good.

but, rather than play it as dreams or pressures forced onto the character, stick to the tool you have agreement with the player on... withhold the earned bonuses and let him IN CHARACTER seek out the answers.

all of course IMO

 

[Oryan77]

I just think IT'S BAD ROLEPLAYING FOR THE CLERIC OF THE "SUPREME GOD OF GOOD" NOT TO WANT TO RESCUE THE PERSON WHO GENEROUSLY GAVE HER ALL HER MAGIC ITEMS.

Too bad man. So you think the PC isn't roleplaying correctly? Being the DM doesn't mean your views on roleplaying are the correct views and you shouldn't punish players if no one follows your idea of how their PC's should be roleplayed.

This is exactly what people are trying to point out to you. You posted here asking what you should do about the PC not trying to rescue his old PC. And you also are asking for advice on how to punish him for not doing the rescue. Almost everyone here has said you should stop trying to punish your player for not following your plot hook...which in turn means you don't need to be the judge on if he's roleplaying his PC correctly, especially when you aren't even using alignments.

Don't let pride get in the way of seeing that everyones replies are just helpful advice and not a jab at your ability to DM. If you want to see what happens when a DM tries to judge how a PC should RP his character, go ahead and lay your smack down on this guy for not roleplaying the way you think he should....you'll be looking for a new player shortly after & your game may possibly come to an end. I used to have the same attitude you have about people roleplaying their characters and I learned the hard way.

Plenty of ideas have been given to deal with this in a more crafty and realistic way than your railroading Archon & dream sequence ideas. I'd read throught this thread again and pick apart some of those ideas...there's potential here to make some really cool side encounters that will possibly tell the player that it would have been morally good to rescue his old PC.

 

[pogre]

Let the old PC spill the beans about the party now that she has been abandoned by her former friends - and then kill her. Move on with your plot and enjoy the new PC enemy. Let the magic items things go - you made a mistake - just lighten up on the treasure for a level if your party is overpowered right now.

 

[SweeneyTodd]

Man, I don't think I'd ever play in a game with alignment again. Blech. A character grows and changes, or even falls well short of their ideals -- and that's bad roleplaying? Heck, I think it's a lot more interesting than seeing a character always lock-step act exactly like the little value on their character sheet.

(Or in your case, the little value in the GM's head that they told the players wouldn't factor into the game, but still does.)

 

[delericho]

Man, I don't think I'd ever play in a game with alignment again. Blech. A character grows and changes, or even falls well short of their ideals -- and that's bad roleplaying? Heck, I think it's a lot more interesting than seeing a character always lock-step act exactly like the little value on their character sheet.

There's nothing in the alignment system to prevent this.

Firstly, characters can and do change alignment. So, a character who grows and changes, or falls short of his ideals changes alignment. Putting a label to it doesn't change what's happening.

Secondly, with only nine alignments to model the entirety of existence there absolutely must be gradations of behaviour within each alignment. Even the Lawful Good alignment is not a collection of clones, all obeying the same tenets without deviation or thought.

Alignment is not a big stick for DMs to threaten players with. It's certainly not a tool by which DMs can enforce their vision of 'correct' behaviour on PCs. It is, at best, a very rough guide to the characters moral and ethical position at any given time.

 

[ptolemy18]

Neat trick. Sadly, creatures affected by Zone of Truth are aware of the effect, and are not compelled to answer questions - only to speak the truth if they speak at all. So, this is unlikely. Still, it does get rid of the PC.

We role-played that out. It pretty much ended up with the interrogators asking "Did you or did you not help the rebels?!" and the soon-to-be-former-PC going "Err, ahh, um, I did what I had to do", at which point, of course, the interrogators realized that she was evading their questions and arrested her.

(Did anyone realize you could have the raddest fantasy totalitarian police state using Detection Magic!!! Yes, it's true!)

1) Write up proper codes of behaviour for the deities in your setting. These don't have to be long, but they should be sufficient for your task. One of the key benefits of not using alignments is that you should feel freer to build complex moral codes - a deity might institute all manner of codes of justice as they relate to one group, but then advocate that their followers commit all manner of atrocities against outsiders, for example. This is possible using alignments, but it is easier without. This solves your problem with pseudo-alignments.

I know, good idea. I've really got to do this...

Jason

 

[ptolemy18]

Man, I don't think I'd ever play in a game with alignment again. Blech. A character grows and changes, or even falls well short of their ideals -- and that's bad roleplaying? Heck, I think it's a lot more interesting than seeing a character always lock-step act exactly like the little value on their character sheet. (Or in your case, the little value in the GM's head that they told the players wouldn't factor into the game, but still does.)

I don't see why everybody is dogpiling me about this. The player and I discussed beforehand that his character, unlike the other PCs in the campaign, would have to act according to a basically "lawful good" alignment code. That PC is the one exception to the no-alignments thing, basically.

I'm not saying he violated that code, either -- I think not rescuing the former PC is borderline but acceptable. It really only violates the "rule of doing something nice for someone who did something nice for you."

Jason

 

[LostSoul]

I don't see why everybody is dogpiling me about this.

I don't see it, either. I don't think you were at fault when you let the two PCs at the same time. I think the Player broke the DM-Player trust issue when he cheesily decided to give all his items to his new PC as a gift. That's pretty lame, unless there is a good reason for it. And if there is a good reason, that reason should still be there when the new PC decides whether or not to save the old PC.

I like the sound of your "Secret Police" with Divination magic. I always thought it would be cool to have a government like that. Zone of Truth + questioning: if he evades the questions or won't answer, he's guilty; if he doesn't intentionally fail his save he's guilty; etc.

 

[sniffles]

I don't see why everybody is dogpiling me about this. The player and I discussed beforehand that his character, unlike the other PCs in the campaign, would have to act according to a basically "lawful good" alignment code. That PC is the one exception to the no-alignments thing, basically.

I'm not saying he violated that code, either -- I think not rescuing the former PC is borderline but acceptable. It really only violates the "rule of doing something nice for someone who did something nice for you."

Jason

And where does this "doing something nice for someone who did something nice for you" rule exist? It certainly doesn't exist in real life. Unless Old PC gave New PC her stuff based on some agreement to do something in return. But if the items were given as a gift, then New PC doesn't have to do anything. Of course, in real life if someone had given me a gift and I could do something for them in return, I would, and maybe you would too, Ptolemy. But maybe your player doesn't feel that way, or his new PC doesn't feel that way. Or maybe he just feels like there's nothing he can do.

 

[LostSoul]

But maybe your player doesn't feel that way, or his new PC doesn't feel that way. Or maybe he just feels like there's nothing he can do.

But why did he then agree to play a cleric of a God of Supreme Good?