UA Variant Rules - Defense Bonus

Ferrix

Explorer
I'm thinking of using the defense bonus variant to AC from Unearthed Arcana however I'm thinking of changing it slightly to match how defense bonus works in the Wheel of Time game. Here's what I've got so far.

Defense Bonus ? modified
Column A = fighter, paladin, wizard
Column B = barbarian, cleric and sorceror
Column C = druid, monk and ranger
Column D = bard, rogue and swashbuckler

Defense Bonus does not stack with Armor Bonus

Three New Feats: Armor Compatibility (light, medium and heavy) which allow you to stack your defense bonus with the corresponding armor type.

I'm thinking that I should give armor compatibility to some of the core fighting classes (fighter, paladin and barbarian). Should I space it out over a few levels or just give it as a blanket at first level to those armors they start proficient with?

I might also be using the armor as DR variant and VP/WP variant as well. Any ideas how this will impact?
 

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I cannot emphasize enough how bad an idea it is to allow Armor Compatability. Especially if you're using armor as DR. You'll have 1st level characters going around with unholy AC's AND DR. Example: 1st-level bard w/Armor Compatibility (Light) is wearing studded leather. He has a +6 Defense bonus, a +2 Armor bonus, DR 1/-, and whatever Dex he's got, which will probably be high. That's 5 more AC that that bard would have without either variant, and 6 more than he'd have with armor as DR. All for the low, low price of a single feat! I'm not down on the whole thing, it's just that I really, really think that that is a bad idea.
 

John Q. Mayhem said:
I cannot emphasize enough how bad an idea it is to allow Armor Compatability. Especially if you're using armor as DR. You'll have 1st level characters going around with unholy AC's AND DR. <snip> I'm not down on the whole thing, it's just that I really, really think that that is a bad idea.

I really want to playtest something like this (and get some other opinions from those who already have) as I too am interested in using a Defense Bonus in my next campaign.

And Ferrix, just for the record, I prefer the way it was done in Wheel of Time over the UA variant as well. For that reason I'm using only three Defense Bonuses that mirror the Poor/Average/Good Save paths (that is, +0-6, +1-9 & +2-12). I'm also limiting your Defense path by your BAB or Reflex save, so only those classes who get a Good Defense or Reflex save get a Good Defense, those with 3/4 BAB or Average Reflex get an Average Defense, and all others get a Poor Defense. Armor & Defense only stack with the appropriate feats.

I have seen others mention allowing feats like Armor Compatibility but having the Armor Check Penalty lower the Defense Bonus appropriately, which seems to make good sense to me. However, I haven't taken the time to run the numbers. Still, following JQM's example using my lower Defense values and with the ACP in place that 1st level Bard with Armor Compatibility Light in Studded Leather would have a Defense bonus of +2 (because of his Good Reflex), a +2 Armor bonus, a -1 ACP penalty (until he picks up Masterwork Studded Leather) plus his Dex. That's an AC of 3+Dex which doesn't seem out of line to me since it cost him the Armor Compatibility feat at 1st level (and that's a high enough cost that it's probably not worth taking until he gains a couple levels and/or picks up MW Armor!).

I'm still undecided about Armor as DR at this point. :\

Thanks.

DrSpunj
 

Ah, good points, thanks for the help. I think I might bump the defense bonuses down to 3 categories. Take out that excessive +6 A category, the things you miss when you forget to read. Might just make it Category A +4, B +2, C +0 and have them increase accordingly. So at 20th level, it'd end up A +10, B +8, C +6.

Column A = fighter, paladin, wizard, cleric
Column B = barbarian, sorcerer, druid, monk, ranger
Column C = bard, rogue and swashbuckler

At this point I'd keep armor compatability as three feats.

Rangers get armor compatability light at 3rd level along with endurance.
Barbarians get armor compatability light at 1st level, and medium at 3rd level.
Paladins and fighters get armor compatability light and medium at 2nd level, and heavy at 4th.
 

My system is a bit...errr..different...

Armor gives a DR equal to its orginal AC value (full plate= DR 8/-, studded leather= DR 3/-), but each point of enchantment bonus adds +2 to the DR.

Of the three classes (my own modified versions of the Generic Classes), the Warrior gets A, expert gets B, and spellcaster gets C. You still get this bonus in light armor, and one column worse than before in medium armor, and two worse in heavy (warrior in full plate gets column C, expert in hide gets column D, and spellcaster in full plate gets no defense bonus).

Also, for every point above an opponent's defense you get on an attack roll, you ignore two points of DR. Criticals automatically ignore armor.


Overall, it's a little more complex, but doesn't add much in the way extra rolling, and works quite well in practice.
 

IMC i have three different Defense values:

1: Good, starts at +2 and changes every 2 levels, used by light fighters like monks and rogues
2: average, starts at +1 and changes every three levels, used by mainline fighter types like fighters and palidans
3: poor. starts at +0 and changed every 3 levels, used by spellcasters (Wizards and mystics) and by HP powerhouses like Berserkers (my name for the PHB barbarian).

Armor as DR

Heavy 6/- Meduim 4/- Light 2/-

Shields add to your defense.

Feats:

Dodge provides a straight +1 to your DV
Armor Focus: chose a type of armor, granting +1 DV while wearing that armor (does not stack with Dodge).
 

Ooh! A thread I can chime in on, 'cause I've got experience working with this!

I work something similar to the Wheel of Time rules, with some slight modifications. I use only three Defense progressions, mainly because I like to keep the Defense divisions similar to the other progressions (I have a moderate save progression, too.) Plus, the fourth one is just kinda wonky. Anyway, they start at +2, +3, and +4, and end at +8, +11, and +14, respectively.

AC - as written - is replaced by Defense. A character's Defense is equal to:
10 + Base Defense Score + Dexterity Mod + Shield + Size Mod + Misc.
Class bonuses for Defense stack, but, like in the Wheel of Time book, you incur a -2 penalty to Defense every time you multiclass. Since the lowest initial bonus is -2, you'll never "lose" Defense from this. (I'm thinking of changing it to a fractional amount (so that someone with eight levels in good Defense classes will act as an 8th level good Defense, not, say, a 3/3/2 character, who would have a net +11 Defense, +5/+5/+5/-2/-2. If I did that, though, I'd do the same to BAB and saves, and I'm too lazy. :D)

Armor provides DR equal to it's original AC bonus. Yes, that can be a lot. However, the tradeoff is that someone with a lot of armor is far easier to hit - when wearing armor, your Defense is capped. Instead of getting the above as your Defense, you may only add up to of core armor's Max Dex Bonus to your Defense, though only from the categories "Base" and "Dexterity Mod." This is kinda hard to explain, so I'll use an example.

A 9th level rogue (with a good Defense progression) has a +8 Defense, and a 19 Dexterity (+4 mod.) He happens to be a halfling, and thus, has a +1 size modifier to Defense. He also took Improved Dodge (house-ruled feat) to add a permanent +1 to his Defense (misc. modifier.) He wears no armor, and thus has a Defense of 24 (10 + 8 + 4 + 1 + 1). Because he wears no armor, he has no DR. He's fairly difficult to hit, but when he *does* get hit...

On the other hand, we have a 9th level fighter (with a moderate Defense progression.) She's human, and has a 12 Dexterity (+1 mod.) Her class bonus is +6. She's using a large shield (+2 Defense), and wearing breastplate, which provides DR of 5/physical, and has a Max Dex of 3. Her defense bonus would be 19 (10 + 6 + 1 + 2) without the armor, but because of it, it is 15 (10 + 2 + 1 +2). (For ease of notation, we've agreed that the cap - Max Dex caps Defense and Dex Mod, which in this case would normally equal +7, to +3 - is always removed first from the Base Defense value.) Thus, she is is about 45% easier to hit than the above rogue, but takes a good deal less damage.
We're finding it works quite well for us. It does put more emphasis on Dexterity, since we've also made all attack rolls modified by Dex, as opposed to Str for melee, but no one overly minds that. Strength is still quite important, since most things have DR that needs to be punched through. Any effects that add damage (sneak attacks, elemental enchantments) are applied before the DR, and things that depend on a successful hit (such as poison) are negated if no damage gets through the DR. I'm pretty sure that's core rules anyway, but I thought I'd note it.

Overall, this system has a number of ripple effects. Combat, in general, lasts a little bit longer, as more things have DR. (Natural armor, for the record, counts as DR as well, not Defense. Deflection is Defense, as is Dodge and... well most things are pretty intuitive.) We don't mind that overmuch, as it's allowing for more lightly-armored fighters who aren't rogues with sneak attack. They generally hit more, and are harder to hit, but take and deal slightly less damage. Our group is balanced with both light-armored and heavy-hitters, and neither side is complaining, which I think is a good sign. Magic ignores DR, since by the core rules, armor would've been AC, and most spells that require a hit roll at all are touch attacks, which ignore that. We find that the group does a bit more grappling and the like than they used to - which, again, people don't mind, because they're using more tactics than before. I had them surround a heavily-armored fellow in my game recently, all grapple him, and then "peel" his armor off (ad-libbed rules for that,) before having a go at him, since they were having a hard time breaking through his armor otherwise. It was a neat feel.
 

John Q. Mayhem said:
I cannot emphasize enough how bad an idea it is to allow Armor Compatability. Especially if you're using armor as DR. You'll have 1st level characters going around with unholy AC's AND DR. Example: 1st-level bard w/Armor Compatibility (Light) is wearing studded leather. He has a +6 Defense bonus, a +2 Armor bonus, DR 1/-, and whatever Dex he's got, which will probably be high. That's 5 more AC that that bard would have without either variant, and 6 more than he'd have with armor as DR. All for the low, low price of a single feat! I'm not down on the whole thing, it's just that I really, really think that that is a bad idea.
We're running three games with the rules I outlined above - a 'core' game, an AU game, and a Wheel of Time game. We've spent some time converting the Wheel of Time rules to 3.5, and the armsman had something similar to the above - in the core WoT rules, he could stack his defense bonus with armor. (No one else could.) What we've done in this case is revamp the ability as follows:
Armor Compatibility: An armsman may increase the max Defense bonus offered by armor worn by half her class level. For example, full plate has a max Defense bonus of +1. An eight level armsman wearing full plate increases the max Defense bonus by +4 (half her class level.)
This seems to work well, because a) it's tied to a class ability (and thus, level, as opposed to a feat,) and b) it's not overkill. Since we use armor as DR, and it's not pure stacking, but an increase on the amount of stacking allowed, it doesn't allow for too ridiculous things, especially since the armsman has a poor Defense progression (+8 at 20th level.) This means, then, that a 20th armsman can wear Full Plate that allows him a +11 Defense/Dex bonus... but his class bonus is only +8! So unless he's got the Dex to capitalize on the rest, it's not used, and even if he does - with a shield, his Defense could be 23 (10 + 8 Base + 3 Dex + 2 Shield). Reasonably high by this system, since he also has DR 8/physical, but then, a 20th level wanderer (good progression) with a, say, 20 Dex has a 29. Without having spent any money on heavy armor, which means faster movement, and much better to-hit rolls.
 

Ah.. some good ideas here...

I think I'll go with 3 categories for defense bonus, makes that simpler. Good, Average and Poor.

Good starts at +4, Average at +3, Poor at +2, increases to +14, +11 and +8 at level 20.

Poor = fighter, paladin, wizard, cleric
Average = barbarian, sorcerer, druid, monk, ranger
Good = bard, rogue and swashbuckler

You get a total Defense bonus equal to your class defense bonus plus your dexterity modifier which is limited by the max Dex bonus allowed by your armor.

Armor as half DR, half AC; a remainder goes to AC. (example Studded Leather = DR 1/AC +2, full plate +1 = DR 4/AC +5)

New Feat:
Armor Compatibility
Prerequisites: BAB +4
You increase the maximum Dex bonus allowed by armor by 1 for every three character levels.

This keeps it out of the hands of characters with a good defense bonus until at least 4th level for the swashbuckler, 5th for the rest and it really won't be too useful until the heavy fighter types gain a few levels and their defense bonus increases anyways.

Examples at 5th level (where the campaign I'm running is going to start):
A heavy fighter could have a +3 defense bonus, could wear fullplate (DR 4/AC +4) with a max dex of +2, a large shield +3 ac and end up with a AC of 19 and DR 4. W/o armor comp. It'd be AC of 18 and DR of 4.

A light fighter could end up with studded leather (DR 1/AC +2) with a max dex of +6, defense bonus +3, dex +3 ac, large shield +3 ac and end up with a AC of 21 and DR of 1.

A swashbuckler could have a defense of +6, a dex of +4, and a large shield could have a AC of 23 and no DR. Or padded armor and armor compatability would change it to +1 padded, +9 max dex, large shield +3 = AC 23. No change, although at 6th level it'd be +1 padded, +10 max dex, large shield +3, defense 24. And could get DR if the padded was enchanted.

Now the monk could have an defense of +6 or +5 (depends on which I end up picking), a dex of +4, a wis of +4, monk bonus +1 ends up with an AC of 24 with average defense, 25 with good. hrm.. must think on the monk. I think i'll leave 'em with average.

I think I've got it worked out... anyone see anything potentially game breaking with this?
 
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I'm using the armor DR rules from UA, but DR does become weaker than AC at high levels. To set that off, I'm letting AC increase for both armored and unarmored characters.

Unarmored Wiz, Sor, Mnk: 2/2/3/3/3/4/4/4/5/5...
Unarmored Rog, Drd: 3/3/4/4/4/5/5/5/6/6...
Unarmored Brd, Bbn, Rgr, Clr: 4/4/5/5/5/6/6/6/7/7...
Unarmored Ftr, Pal: 6/6/7/7/7/8/8/8/9/9...

Cloth, Leather: 1/1/1/1/2/2/2/2/2/3...
Studded, Hide, Chain Shirt, Scale: 2/2/2/2/3/3/3/3/3/4...
Chain, Breastplate, Splint, Banded: 3/3/3/3/4/4/4/4/4/5...
Half-plate, Full Plate: 4/4/4/4/5/5/5/5/5/6...
 
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