Uber archer?

[Crothian]

300 damage in 3 rounds really is not enough info to decide if it is too much. Did you take full round actions to shoot 4 or more times a round? Are you using +5 bow with +5 arrows of creature slaying? Or did the dice get really lucky and you crit a lot? Luck and equipment really play a large part in this.

 

[hong]

What jumps out at me the most, is the whole aimed shot/penetrating shot/training benefit thing. That in its self is a huge ability. Deep wood snipers get a true strike once per day, this guy gets it whenever he wants..... and does double damage on it. Add that in with called shot and this guy just gets nasty.

DW snipers also get x5 crits and an extended threat range, and they don't have to give up a full attack for it. The peerless archer (which I admit is fully OTT) gets the called shot ability with no range limit, and no limit on the no. of attacks per round. The OotBI gets sneak attacks and souped-up Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec. I think you underestimate just how much damage-dealing potential the other archer PrCs have.

If it were just that.....i could, maybe, let it slide by, since you are limited to one attack with that, but the prestige class then goes on to give you a wide range of abilities (Not all of which are even archery focused).

That was the point, to create a class that does justice to the "Zen" in Zen archery. This is something I think the OotBI fails miserably at.

 

[hong]

300 damage in 3 rounds really is not enough info to decide if it is too much. Did you take full round actions to shoot 4 or more times a round? Are you using +5 bow with +5 arrows of creature slaying? Or did the dice get really lucky and you crit a lot? Luck and equipment really play a large part in this.

3 hasted rounds for six shots, each dealing ~50 pts damage. +3 holy bow, +4 arrows (GMW'ed from the party wizard). No crits. Basically it went like this:

standard action: move + true strike, aimed, called shot (+10 dmg)
partial action: true strike, aimed, called shot (ditto)

The dragon should perhaps have moved to whack me, but its attention was occupied by a couple of tank fighters who were right up in its face (literally, in one case -- character kept getting snatched and chewed on).

 

[DarkJester]

I see what you mean, and you did create a much more zen focused archer than the OotBI, yet I think you went over the top with it.

You have basicly taken 50% of the good stuff out of all the other archer prestiege classes and put them all into one.

It is really not just the damage dealing capability... the class just has so many benefits.

Better saves, more skill points, fighter bab, ability to get second chance vs will saves, true seeing, +20 to hit as a full round action ( vs the deepwood snipers +4), cover reduction, concealment reduction, anti deflect arrows, wis bonus to damage (in place of str, but no limit), double damage on single shots.

I don't think it is way out there over the top, just a few to many abilities. I could see how you wouldn't want to cut back on them, as it will start to loose some flavor.

 

[DarkJester]

I really don't think 100 damage a round is out of line at 14th, as long as other characters are capable of at least coming close. Its all about the type of game.

 

[hong]

I see what you mean, and you did create a much more zen focused archer than the OotBI, yet I think you went over the top with it.

You have basicly taken 50% of the good stuff out of all the other archer prestiege classes and put them all into one.

One thing you'll note: typically, an archer who wants to max out damage will always have Rapid Shot. Its prereqs are a no-brainer, and the benefit usually outweighs the cost substantially. This isn't the case for this class, since so many of the features revolve around single shots.

It is really not just the damage dealing capability... the class just has so many benefits.

Well, it _does_ have 7 feats and 10 ranks in Concentration as prereqs....

Better saves, more skill points, fighter bab, ability to get second chance vs will saves, true seeing, +20 to hit as a full round action ( vs the deepwood snipers +4), cover reduction, concealment reduction, anti deflect arrows, wis bonus to damage (in place of str, but no limit), double damage on single shots.

1. The anti-deflect arrows thing is pure flavour. I don't think I've ever seen anyone take the Deflect Arrows feat, or if they have, they never use it. I guess I could get rid of it.

2. The double damage on single shots basically gets back on par with a full attack with Rapid Shot, by my rough estimation.

3. I've house ruled the no. of times the DW sniper gets true strike to be at will, rather than once per day. I think it's completely silly that a 16th-17th level archer gets to use the equivalent of a 1st level spell once per day. I've also given the class a good Fort save.

4. D'oh! I forgot all about the ranged blind-fight ability. Would have come in very handy against the black dragon's last darkness spell....

5. I have roughly 70% of the hit points that the tank fighters in the party have. Having to bump up Dex and Wis means not having that much gp left for Con.

 

[DarkJester]

Good points, all except 5 I would say.

Normal archers require both high dex and str if they are to be succsessful (Mighty bows). Having high dex and wisdom is better than that, not only are you geting a bonus to will saves from the high wisdom, but your damage cap is not limited.

Overall - if it works for you guys, thats all that matters, the damage capabilities are not out of line.

 

[The Souljourner]

Ok, Hong, that class is fscking ridiculous. At 10th level every single shot you take is true striked and does double damage and ignores the first 4 points of cover and you can cause 10d6 points of constitution loss per day.

RI-f'ing-DICULOUS.

You call Peerless Archer over the top? This guys eats peerless archer for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

300 points of damage in 3 rounds to a dragon? If the dragon was actually a decent threat, I'd say yes, that's too much.

-The Souljourner

 

[hong]

Good points, all except 5 I would say.

Normal archers require both high dex and str if they are to be succsessful (Mighty bows). Having high dex and wisdom is better than that, not only are you geting a bonus to will saves from the high wisdom, but your damage cap is not limited.

Well, to be precise, a normal archer requires only Str 18, which is easily gettable at high levels using magic. Wis 20+ means a higher damage bonus, but you still need to be able to afford it. By the time you have Wis 30+, you're probably getting damage bonuses from elsewhere that leave this in the shade (and things go funny at Epic levels anyway). It's not really a big deal yet for my PC.

Also, the Instinctive Strike feat is actually gettable by anyone who meets the prereqs (Wis 13+, BAB +8, Weapon Focus), not just this PrC. Although I'll admit noone else has taken it so far....

Finally, low Con means a low Fort save, just as a high Wis means a high Will save. I have Great Fortitude for this very reason -- you don't want to take any chances against disintegrate, finger of death, et al. The GF has actually saved my bacon once already.

Overall - if it works for you guys, thats all that matters, the damage capabilities are not out of line.

I think the player who was questioning this most of all was the guy with the master of chains. He has 6 attacks per round with Improved TWF and a speed weapon, but he isn't really optimised for pure damage. (The spiked chain isn't the best weapon for this purpose in the first place.) He can dish out 120+ points if he hits with all attacks, but it's rare, and each individual hit only does ~20 points, which is pretty low for this level IMO.

That should change soon though, since he'll be putting a couple of energy enchantments on his chain. That should serve to even things out a bit.

 

[hong]

Ok, Hong, that class is fscking ridiculous. At 10th level every single shot you take is true striked and does double damage

Sigh.

The aimed shot.

and ignores the first 4 points of cover

It doesn't come into play that often, IME.

and you can cause 10d6 points of constitution loss per day.

I'm toning that down, as I said above.

300 points of damage in 3 rounds to a dragon? If the dragon was actually a decent threat, I'd say yes, that's too much.

Do you know how much damage a buffed 14th level character of almost _any_ class can do?