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Ultimate Combat Playtest: Gunslinger, Ninja, Samurai

Thanks!

Hey everyone,

I just wanted to say thanks for discussing the classes here. And while I would love it if you could post over at Paizo messageboards, I also understand most of you are not going to.

I just wanted you to know, as a guy who lurks this board each day, I appreciate the candid conversation about the playtest classes. Keep it coming!
 

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i really only have one thing to point out about guns... maybe two. one, other than our high powered exceptions (sniper rifles and other high caliber weapons) guns have actually gotten weaker as we progress in tech, we have traded raw power for firing rate and mass production the US military has even stated this and are currently working to bring guns the power that some of our older models had that our new ones now lack. Does this mean they should be touch in the first range increment? Not really, but at the same time it doesn't say the opposite. What does, in some ways, say they shouldn't would probably, and i am some what loathe to say it, be Deadliest Warrior. Watch the Knight v Pirate, Plate armor barely got dented by the pistol, although the blunderbuss did rip it a new one pretty easily.
 

Cool info/history. Thanks. Some I knew some I didn't.

On the topic and relevant to the post:

It's a fantasy game unfortunately. Verisimilitude is important to a degree but I think the idea or flavor of firearms in a fantasy setting needs to be strong for them to have any reason to exist. Like you said the main reason firearms took off is ease of use. In an RPG that means absolutely nothing, every PC is already above average so how else can firearms be distinguished? Absolutely crossbows SHOULD be armor piercing but for balance they aren't.

I guess really firearms should be simple weapons.

Let's assume though that since this is a fantasy game and Golarion is a fantasy setting that the firearms there are stronger than what we know. Maybe the bullets are made of denser harder material. Maybe their form of gunpowder is even faster burning, I don't know. You get my drift though.

They need to be distinct from bows and I think the armor piercing idea at close range is interesting and different. I like it although I well know it isn't necessarily realistic.

It's annoying to sometimes err on the side of fantasy and sometimes not but I personally can let it slide in this case.
My means of handling guns has been to make them Martial (not Exotic, but they are harder to use than a crossbow) give them good damage (D10 for pistol, D12 for carbine, 2d6 for musket), a 20/X3 Crit modifier, but a 50' range increment (30' for pistols). Like a heavy crossbow they take a round to load. The high damage and crit multiplier are because those big, fat, soft, slow lead balls are excellent at transmitting energy - bone does not so much break as shatter.

If I am using critical failure rules then a gun fails on 1-2, confirmed by a second failed to hit roll, much like the reverse of a critical hit. This is double the chance of most weapons. To make up for the increased fumbling I have been tempted to increase the X3 crit damage to X4, but only when using the chance of critical failure.

I have never had a gun explode on me, though I have had them fail to fire. And I have put several hundred rounds through archaic firearms. Keeping the guns clean goes a long way to avoiding the failure. The guns I have fired most often have been Land Pattern (Brown Bess) - a friend of mine has one that saw a full century of service, first in the British army, then the British navy (where the barrel was shortened to carbine length and the muzzle flared), then to the Spanish navy, then the Spanish auxiliaries in Mexico.

In play they don't feel much like a crossbow or a bow, most often the players take the pistol as a close range weapon and use a crossbow at range. A six foot long musket is just plain awkward, though with the invention of the plug bayonet this will become an advantage, allowing the use of the gun as a spear. And since the bayonet was invented ca. 1611 and my game takes place ca. 1630.... :)

They don't need special rules, any more than a crossbow needs special rules.

However, looking at the Pathfinder rules for firearms I am tempted to add a similar rule to the Broken quality to my own game - call it Fouled. If a Fouled weapon is fired without cleaning then it gains Broken if it misfires. If you are silly enough to fire it again without Repairing the gun and get another misfire, well... you had two warnings, eh? *BOOM!* (After a misfire I have always cleaned the gun thoroughly. You are an idiot if you don't.)

I might even allow the 'Touch Attack' rule as a special ability for pistols - close range and aiming at things like the visor are a lot easier with a pistol than any other weapon. With a musket on the other hand... bleah. :p

That said... I like some of what I see, but feel that all three classes should be in setting books rather than a more general book on combat. I say this in spite of the fact that I am thinking about adding gunslinger right away. I really like that class, even if I disagree with the attending rules for firearms.

The Auld Grump, who freely admits that he has not yet looked at either the Samurai or the Ninja.... He likes guns. :) But taking a quick glance at Samurai... weren't the Samurai primarily horse archers?

*EDIT* The most serious self inflicted injury that I have ever had with an archaic firearm was tearing the webbing of my left thumb with a flintlock. Ye gods, that hurt, not life threatening, but damn....

*EDIT 2* Looking at the webbing, I still have the scar, some thirty years later.
 
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I would actually give guns a small range increment. Although they have a long absolute range, at least once you get to the late 18th century or so, effective range and accuracy fall off pretty quickly.
 

I would actually give guns a small range increment. Although they have a long absolute range, at least once you get to the late 18th century or so, effective range and accuracy fall off pretty quickly.
Until the invention of the flintlock there actually was not that much aiming taking place. :erm: The match got in the way and it was not unknown for there to be flash from the touch hole. You could put your eye out that way, so often they would 'aim' then close their eyes and bring the match in contact with the primer. It helped if you were aiming at large units.

The wheellock did not have that problem, but was complicated, expensive, and fragile. It was primarily used on pistols, and allowed the holding of fire. A toy of the aristocracy for the most part.

For hunting or for personal use a scattergun or blunderbuss was preferred, close was good enough.

The flintlock changed everything. Simple, reliable, and inexpensive. :)

The Auld Grump
 

Re

About the Gunslinger class:
I find the class pretty blanced. First of all, you have 1 attack per round, only with a pistol and only with Rapid Reload (however, I do think that attacking touch AC is kinda wrong, at least mechanically). Then you are a guy that wont have the best AC out there, a.k.a you have DEX but no Heavy Armor Prof. neither armor training... Your d10 hp help out of course. RPwise, Gunslingers naturally fit in a campaign featuring pirates and the like.

About the Ninja class:
I dont really have an opinion on this class, didnt read too much about it but I noticed it didn't have trapfinding :( . RPwise you would probably play a Ninja in a western campaign setting as a hunted outlaw or exile.

About the Samurai class:
Well the samurai class has caught my eye. It seems like a cavalier that has less abilities about mounted combat and more about "himself". RPwise, I can't see why a Samurai would become an adventurer in a non-oriental campaign setting, and that's when the ronin kicks in. It's rather common that samurai who lost their status would travel away from their homeland.
 

I can't see why a Samurai would become an adventurer in a non-oriental campaign setting, and that's when the ronin kicks in. It's rather common that samurai who lost their status would travel away from their homeland.

You just can refluff it as a tough, weapon expert Cavalier.

I find odd the cold response to the ninja in this thread.

Ninja is IMHO very well made, both from a fluff and mechanic standpoint. Everything you can think of about the fictional archetype of ninja is there.
 

Armors with fortification should get their % to determine a touch attack or standard when whit in the first range increment.

The early Firearms were inaccurate like AuldGrump mentioned. I would let firearms have ten range increments but have the range increment.

I would also import the 2ed rule for firearms damage, penetrating damage dice. If you roll max damage on a die you roll an additional of the same type and add the 2 together. Yes, each time you roll a damage die and got the max damage you rolled another. This represented that bullet can bounce around inside a body. It can bounce off a bone or armor and do more damage.

The other 2ed rule you might want to use is the range penalties are doubled.
 

I would also import the 2ed rule for firearms damage, penetrating damage dice. If you roll max damage on a die you roll an additional of the same type and add the 2 together. Yes, each time you roll a damage die and got the max damage you rolled another. This represented that bullet can bounce around inside a body. It can bounce off a bone or armor and do more damage.

So a pistol bullet (d8) is more likely to bounce than a musket bullet (d12)?

I'm not sure I like it.
 

I like the ninja too. I think it's different enough but I could see it being even more different. Regardless I think all the abilities are mechanically sound, seem fun to use and seem ninja'ish. Disguise stuff, concealed weapons, distractions and smoke bombs. All very cool. I think they did a good job not making it too fantastical or too realistic. It's got both qualities although i'd say it seems a bit on the conservative side compared to the radical gunslinger.
 

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