D&D 5E Ultimate Magic Playtesting to Start Next Week

[DogBackward]

You can combine spellstrike and Spell combat.
Using spell combat cast Shocking grasp then -4 hit penalty (if made concentration check) use Spellstrike to hit them with sword and shocking grasp.

Ah, yes, so I can now have two chances to lose the spell. One when I make a Concentration check to cast it at -2 (the DC's of which are too high at early levels, just like they're too low at later levels), and when I make the attack roll at a -4 penalty. No thanks, it's still a much better option to just make the touch attack followed by the normal attacks.

Spellstrike should really just allow you to make a melee attack to deliver the spell when you cast it. It's not that big a boost, since it can't benefit from things like Vital Strike (you're not using "the attack action"), so you're getting a boost of 1d8+3 or so to damage in return for going against AC instead of Touch.

I see Spell Combat more as a way to use other spells while still attacking. Like tossing off a Shield and then attacking, so you're not wasting rounds to buff. Or using Color Spray or the like to weaken enemies before smacking them. It's still tougher than I think it really needs to be, but it's useful enough to be worth it. Spellstrike itself, however, is never a better option than just casting normally and then attacking, whether it's done over two rounds at 1st level, or all in the same round with Spell Combat at 2nd level.

 

[Aegir]

Spellstrike: One idea is to allow the Magus to deliver the spell with a weapon attack, but have the success be conditional. If his attack hits touch AC but not full AC, then the spell is delivered. If it hits both... he does both. Goes against long-standing 3.x tradition on how rules work ("choose before you act and if you fail, sucks to be you!"), but its the sort of thing I'd allow.

Another idea would be to have it function like a short-duration Spell Storing. Spells loaded into the weapon, but it dissipates after say, one minute. That way the spell isn't delivered unless a hit is landed, so the spell isn't wasted (unless you miss ten times in a row).

Spell Combat: Would simply giving Combat Casting as a bonus feat make it useful? A Lv 1 spell for a Lv 1 character needs a DC 17, and assuming an 18 Int, you need a 12 to succeed (14 w/ penalty), or 8 with Combat Casting (10 w/ penalty). So... it looks like it'd help, but its still a pretty risky proposition. Honestly I don't think the penalty is even necessary: the fact that you're forced to make a concentration check and taking a fairly sizable penalty to your attack seems more than enough.

1/day Metamagics: Definitely needs to be more, maybe equal to Int mod, though that might be too much with stuff like Maximize. At least 3/day.

Touch Spells: It is funny that delivering touch spells is such a big part of this class, and yet it gets very few to choose from. I wonder if any thought was given to giving them access to the Inflict Wounds chain.

 

[fireinthedust]

until you realize that Spellstrike is utterly useless in all but a few extremely rare cases. As clarified at Paizo, you cast a touch spell and hold the charge, then can deliver it through a melee attack. So, you take two rounds to cast a touch spell and then attack with it, adding your weapon damage.

I don't know that I agree with this analysis. You can deliver the spell through a melee attack *could* mean that you cast one round and hit the next. I thought it just meant you can use the spell as usual, but use the weapon.

Do touch spells require a different action to cast than to attack with?

Regardless: I vote Spellstrike lets them cast said spell at the same time as they can attack with their weapon. That makes more sense to me.

I also vote they get some kind of ability to channel different spells through their weapon, doing the damage to a single target rather than everyone in range. I could cast Fireball at 6th level and instead of hitting several enemies, I could channel it into one foe: 6d6 fire damage, plus weapon damage. AND instead of them getting a saving throw, I have to hit their AC.

I think the Magus spell list should be the wizard list. Even if they get their spells more slowly, they should have the whole range. Very 2e, I know, but Eldritch Knights have had said access for some time.

I don't like the way the Alchemist and Magus have different spell lists from the wizard. They aren't different types of magic (like the Bard, the Cleric and the Sorcerer); rather, they're different schools of one type of spellcasting: wizardry.

Otherwise you have to explain why metaphysically there are all these different types of magic out there. Psionics is something different, Druid spells are something different (communing with nature). Yes, the Cleric and the Paladin have different lists, and I get that; but the Wizard spell list is a matter of Intelligence and learning. they're specific magical formulas that the wizard can cast. The Cleric/Paladin, on the other hand, are different enough from one another in their roles on behalf of their patron deities, who give them their spells and make them magical creatures.

If the Magus has slower advancement, and a cap at 6th level spells, you'll still see them limited in their selections: likely choosing buffing spells at higher levels, and damage spells. You don't need a list, it'll happen on its own.

Also: the name is misleading. Battlemage would have been better, or War Wizard; or even re-tooling Eldritch Knight as a base class openly, rather than trying to reinvent the wheel and pretend a word or term means something it historically never did. The Magi in the Bible were astronomers, not warrior wizards.

Ugh, wish I'd been there for the name-choosing!

 

[DogBackward]

Well, the Alchemist has a different list because it can only really use targeted spells and self-buffs. No Fireball extracts for you, sorry. But yeah, the Magus should definitely have the full wizard list, since they have a lot of wizardy spells now, so there's no call to limit them to just blasty stuff, which means there's no reason not to give them everything.

And Spellstrike has officially been clarified to be cast in round one, deliver with weapon in round two. I agree that it should be all at once, but it's not. And yeah, technically it's a different action to deliver a touch spell than to cast it. You just get a free action to deliver a touch spell when casting it.

 

[Cor_Malek]

Touch Spells: It is funny that delivering touch spells is such a big part of this class, and yet it gets very few to choose from. I wonder if any thought was given to giving them access to the Inflict Wounds chain.

From what I understand, that's because he'll get more (maybe even some some exclusive) touch spells in Ultimate Magic. For now we got a list of his spells that utilizes lists we already have, so it's not overlapping test-wise*. I wouldn't be surprised if even giving him shocking grasp wasn't a part of his design, but rather used solely testing purposes.

But I base this only on what we don't know, and where's manoeuvring space for it.


*ie spell could look totally imba because of some ability, that in course of testing gets changed anyway (or vice versa).

PS.: There are already first actual play-test threads on Paizo (as opposed to theorizing) so there's more to go on

 

[Steel_Wind]

Touch Spells: It is funny that delivering touch spells is such a big part of this class, and yet it gets very few to choose from. I wonder if any thought was given to giving them access to the Inflict Wounds chain.

*Ahem*

Broad Study (Ex): A magus with this magus arcana must select one other class that grants the ability to cast spells. The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells from that class’s spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure. The magus must be at least 6th level before selecting this arcana.

Seeing as at sixth level, the Magus gets to add an entire CLASS worth of spells to his potential spell lists (and this is not restricted to Arcane spells only -- Divine spells are permitted as near as I can tell), complaining about a limited selection of touch spells seems a bit misplaced.

If a Spellstrike Inflictor is the path your Magus wishes to take? Go for it. Prefer the rather stock route of Ghoul Touch and all the rest of the base wizard lists? Then make that choice. Either way, the sky's the limit.

 

[Walking Dad]

No, he cannot just learn the spells... this Arkana is for multiclassed Magi.

Jason Bulmahn (Lead Designer), Monday, 12:50 PM

Decorus wrote:

"Broad Study (Ex): A magus with this magus arcana must
select one other class that grants the ability to cast spells.
The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat
abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list
of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells
from that class’s spell list without suffering the normal
chances of arcane spell failure. The magus must be at least
6th level before selecting this arcana." Please note the current wording seemingly allows you to actually add an additional spell list to your own. If its purpose is to only add the ability to use spell combat and spellstrike with an additional class you multiclassed into it needs to be clarified.
​

Yeah, not at all. It says nothing of adding a spell list to your own. All it says is that you can use spellstrike and spell combat with the spells from another class. It does not grant you the ability to cast those spells. This is really just for multiclass magi. Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

From Here:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboard...PG/ultimateMagicPlaytest/round1/magusPlaytest

 

[BryonD]

Seeing as at sixth level, the Magus gets to add an entire CLASS worth of spells to his potential spell lists (and this is not restricted to Arcane spells only -- Divine spells are permitted as near as I can tell), complaining about a limited selection of touch spells seems a bit misplaced.

But it doesn't say that.

It says it grants the ability to use spellstrike and spell combat when casting the spells, but it does not saying anything about adding those spells to the Magus spell list. The implication being that this only works for multiclass characters.

Now, you may be correctly reading something that is intended into it. Because it seems a really lame ability as written. But, it doesn't say that.

IMO if the class learns spells and prepares arcane spells the same way a wizard does, they should just use the wizard spell list and let the slower advancement control the balance.

 

[Walking Dad]

Another point:

There is a thread on the Paizo board that compares damage per round and similar class strengths versus another. Clerics or bards that boost themselves are considered selfish builds, because their spells should be better cast on more combat focused characters to benefit the whole group...

What about the Magus? Why would it be ok that he boosts himself with his spells? Should he cast enlarge person on the fighter and greater magic weapon on the paladin's weapon? And if he is allowed to buff himself, why the hate on druids, clerics and bards who do the same?

 

[Starbuck_II]

Another point:

There is a thread on the Paizo board that compares damage per round and similar class strengths versus another. Clerics or bards that boost themselves are considered selfish builds, because their spells should be better cast on more combat focused characters to benefit the whole group...

What about the Magus? Why would it be ok that he boosts himself with his spells? Should he cast enlarge person on the fighter and greater magic weapon on the paladin's weapon? And if he is allowed to buff himself, why the hate on druids, clerics and bards who do the same?

Some people call Cleric/bards selfish so they don't have to consider how strong the classes really are.
It is mostly strawman and diversions.

Cor_Malek

From what I understand, that's because he'll get more (maybe even some some exclusive) touch spells in Ultimate Magic. For now we got a list of his spells that utilizes lists we already have, so it's not overlapping test-wise*. I wouldn't be surprised if even giving him shocking grasp wasn't a part of his design, but rather used solely testing purposes.

Well, it sounds hard to playtest a class that doesn't have its real class features (like spells).
Any data gained from false data would be largely unuseful because it was not the real class.