UMD, Staffs & Caster Level

[Hypersmurf]

No problem. You just use Emulate a Class Feature aspect instead of using the Use a Wand portion of the skill. The check is a bit harder (as you have to emulate a caster level of 1 or higher), but that will allow you to use your result -20 as the caster level for the staff.

You don't need a caster level to activate a wand. A 3rd level ranger, for example, has no caster level, but he can use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds.

-Hyp.

 

[Fedifensor]

You don't need a caster level to activate a wand. A 3rd level ranger, for example, has no caster level, but he can use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds.

But you do need the spell on your spell list. So, if you want to use fireball from a staff of fire, you need to have that spell. If you emulate having that class feature (spellcasting with the class spell list) your caster level is determined by your UMD check minus 20. So it works out to the same thing.

 

[Fedifensor]

Activating staves and wands have thier own method.

There is nothing stating in the skill that you are required to use one particular portion of the skill. If "emulate a class feature" will activate the staff and let you set the caster level, then you can do it instead of "use a wand".

 

[Kurotowa]

Also, you can emulate caster level...

Caster Level is not a class feature. Class features are the entries in bold in the Class Features section of a class, and Caster Level does not appear there. Now it's arguable that you could emulate the Spells class feature and gain a Caster Level equal to your Character Level. I learn towards yes, but I wouldn't press a DM who ruled no.

 

[Quidam]

If a cleric UMD'd a staff for spells not on the cleric list, would his caster level be used since he, as a spellcaster, has a caster level? What about a warlock?

 

[Hypersmurf]

If a cleric UMD'd a staff for spells not on the cleric list, would his caster level be used since he, as a spellcaster, has a caster level?

Yes. When you use UMD to activate a spell trigger item, you activate it as though the spell were on your class list.

The cleric using UMD activates Fireball from a staff in the same way as if he were activating Flame Strike - he uses his cleric caster level and his Wisdom modifier, because he is effectively activating a cleric spell.

If "emulate a class feature" will activate the staff and let you set the caster level, then you can do it instead of "use a wand".

But it won't. Because while you might emulate the 'Spells' class feature, which allows a cleric to cast spells from the cleric spell list, for example, you can't emulate the class spell list itself. The spell list does not appear under class features; it isn't something you can emulate.

Aside from that - what would be the point of a DC20 'activate wand' application, if a DC20 'emulate class feature' application could have the same result? Why would the activate wand application appear on the list, when it is subsumed by the other entry?

-Hyp.

 

[Fedifensor]

But it won't. Because while you might emulate the 'Spells' class feature, which allows a cleric to cast spells from the cleric spell list, for example, you can't emulate the class spell list itself. The spell list does not appear under class features; it isn't something you can emulate.

Sorry, it actually does. For example, look at the Spells class feature for wizards:

Spells

A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/ wizard spell list.

The class feature specifically refers to drawing the spells from that list. To say otherwise is to say you can't emulate Turn Undead because the turning table is in a different part of the book.

Aside from that - what would be the point of a DC20 'activate wand' application, if a DC20 'emulate class feature' application could have the same result? Why would the activate wand application appear on the list, when it is subsumed by the other entry?

Actually, the emulate class feature is DC 21, as you need to get at be at least level 1 with the Spells class feature to have a spell list.

What your arguments boil down to is that you don't want UMD to do this in your campaign. Which is fine, but it's not what the rules say.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The class feature specifically refers to drawing the spells from that list.

The Spells feature refers to casting spells drawn from the list.

You're emulating the ability to cast spells from the wizard's list, but you're not emulating the wizard's list.

The ability to cast spells is not required to activate a spell trigger item. The 3rd level ranger does not have the Spells class feature, and he can activate a spell trigger item. He does have the class list... which is not listed under class features, and cannot be emulated.

A ranger (or paladin) has a class list at 1st level, but he doesn't have the Spells class feature. The Spells class feature is not what allows you to use a spell trigger item... so emulating the Spells class feature is not what allows you to use a spell trigger item.

Actually, the emulate class feature is DC 21, as you need to get at be at least level 1 with the Spells class feature to have a spell list.

Not so. Again, refer to the Ranger. The 'Spells' class feature opens with 'Beginning at 4th level...', and appears in the text between 'Animal Companion' (gained at 4th level) and 'Improved Combat Style (gained at 6th level). He does not have the Spells class feature until he is 4th level. But he has a spell list from the beginning, whether he has the Spells class feature or not.

-Hyp.

 

[Fedifensor]

The Spells feature refers to casting spells drawn from the list.

You're emulating the ability to cast spells from the wizard's list, but you're not emulating the wizard's list.

That's a pretty convoluted stretch. As a function of his class, a wizard has access to a spell list that allows him to use magic items like wands and staves. By the rules, UMD can duplicate that feature. As I said before, if you don't like it, houserule it. But it doesn't change the rules as written.

 

[Hypersmurf]

As a function of his class, a wizard has access to a spell list that allows him to use magic items like wands and staves. By the rules, UMD can duplicate that feature. As I said before, if you don't like it, houserule it. But it doesn't change the rules as written.

As a function of his class, a wizard has a BAB and base save bonuses. But they are not listed under class features, and thus cannot be emulated with Emulate Class Feature.

The class list is not listed under class features, and thus cannot be emulated with Emulate Class Feature.

-Hyp.