Uncanny Dodge and the Dodge bonus - Yes or No?

[Ourph]

Like a good many so-called difficult rules questions in D&D 3.x, it's only difficult if you decide to make it so. If you decide that a rogue has the uncanny ability to dodge threats he's unaware of just as well as the threats he is aware of (somewhat like D'artagnan can parry foes behind him just as easily as foes in front of him in the barfight scene from Musketeer), then it's pretty easy to interpret most issues.

I never said it was difficult. I never had a problem with the specific rules or my interpretation of them.

However, this isn't really the forum to discuss why I don't like DMing the 3e version of D&D, so I'll just say it didn't appeal to me and leave it at that.

 

[Caliban]

Fact.



Opinion.

If Uncanny Dodge specifically said "you retain your Dex bonus to AC (if any) and any other Dodge bonuses to AC (if any)" there would be no need for interpretation, but it doesn't.

IMO, if an ability does not specifically state the character receives a benefit, s/he doesn't.

It's not just an opinion.

The PHB states that any situation that negates your Dex bonus also negates your Dodge bonuses. (Page 307)

Did the situation negate the character's Dex bonus? No, it did not.

Therefore, by the rules as written, they don't lose any Dodge bonus.

It's just that simple.

 

[Ourph]

Fact.

It's a chicken and egg scenario.

Did you lose your Dex bonus? Yes.
Did you lose your Dodge bonuses? Yes.
Does Uncanny Dodge give your Dex bonus back to you? Yes.
Does Uncanny Dodge give your Dodge bonuses back to you? It doesn't say that it does, therefore my ruling is that it does not.

Unless you can show me a sentence in any of the rulebooks that specifically says Uncanny Dodge allows you to retain ALL dodge bonuses to AC, I'm not conceding your interpretation is fact.

However, I'm not asking anyone to concede my interpretation is fact either.

 

[Caliban]

It's a chicken and egg scenario.

Did you lose your Dex bonus? Yes.
Did you lose your Dodge bonuses? Yes.
Does Uncanny Dodge give your Dex bonus back to you? Yes.

No that's incorrect. Uncanny dodge makes it so that you never lose your Dex bonus in the first place. You retain it, you don't lose it and get it back.

At no time are you without your Dex bonus. If you never lose your Dex bonus, then why would you lose your Dodge bonus?

You have been shown where the rules state that you lose your Dodge bonus if you lose your Dex bonus.

You have been shown where the rules state that Uncanny Dodge prevents you from losing your Dex bonus.

Now you show me were it says that you can lose your Dodge bonus even if you don't lose your Dex bonus.

Show me anything that actually supports your position.

 

[ruleslawyer]

What Caliban said.

Ourph: Your doubt would only apply if the character in question were exposed to a situation that specifically denied him his dodge bonus to AC rather than denying him his Dex bonus. There's no cause-and-effect here. If a character loses his Dex bonus, he loses his dodge bonus as a consequence. If a character does not lose his Dex bonus, then there is no loss of dodge bonus.

 

[dcollins]

I agree that Uncanny Dodge prevents loss of the Dex bonus to AC, and therefore retains Dodge bonuses. That's also the simplest way to handle it.

The ability to dodge an unseen attacker is truly Uncanny.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Note that the Uncanny Dodge ability specifically says "if he is struck while flat-footed. Uncanny Dodge doesn't eliminate the condition that caused you to lose your Dex bonus to AC, it merely allows you to keep your Dodge bonus to AC in spite of it.

Therefore, the condition that denies you your other dodge bonuses still exists and causes all but the one based on your Dex modifier to go away. Uncanny Dodge only addresses the character's Dex bonus, if it also applies to other dodge bonuses it should say "he retains his Dex bonus to AC (if any) and any other dodge bonuses to AC (if any) even if he is struck while flat-footed or by an invisible opponent.

The condition that denies you your other dodge bonuses is precisely losing your Dex bonus. Since you do not lose your Dex bonus, but in fact "retain" it, you do not lose your dodge bonuses. Even if you did lose your Dex bonus for an instant, the moment you get the bonus back, you get your dodge bonus back. That is because it's not "being attacked by an invisible attacker" that made you lose your dodge bonuses. That only makes you lose your Dex bonus. Losing your Dex bonus is what causes you to lose your dodge bonuses, so the cause of the loss of your Dex bonus is irrelevant to this situation. If uncanny dodge returns your missing Dex bonus, then you regain your dodge bonuses by virtue of having a Dex bonus once more, since the only reason they were gone was that you were being denied your Dex bonus.

To be clear, being attacked by an invisible attacker was not the cause of your loss of dodge bonuses, and uncanny dodge does in fact remove the effect which did cause you to lose your dodge bonuses.

 

[WizarDru]

Yeah, it's almost uncanny the way rogues and barbarians can dodge blows from foes they're unaware of isn't it. Maybe that's why it's called UNCANNY dodge.

That made me laugh out loud. Kudos, sir, kudos.

Heh. Still makes me chuckle. "almost uncanny." I'll be grinning for a while, yet.

 

[jodyjohnson]

6 to 1. Does the Jury need to be unanimous?

 

[Christian]

Boy, I'm glad my DM didn't rule that way when my rogue was on total defense against invisible opponents the last two game sessions. Though I'm not sure that he realized that other party members (besides the barbarian) wouldn't be able to get the AC benefit of that, as it wasn't mentioned. And nobody else was as cowardly ... erm, practical as I was. (I have a firm policy of not getting into melee with anything I can't sneak attack. Sue me.)