Uncanny Dodge

[Sharkon]

Have you found any way that a rogue or a ninja can sneak attack a character with uncanny dodge ? (i will propably get no reply )

 

[irdeggman]

Yeah you can still flank him. That does not involve being flat-footed (which is what uncanny dodge negates). Improved uncanny dodge prevents flanking (unless the attacker is at least 4 levels higher).

The character can still be immobilized though.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's a houserule, but in my group UC does not protect from anything that leaves you w/o dex to AC other than surprise, invisibility, and the like. If you're balancing and don't have 5 ranks in the skill, if you're running and don't have the Run feat, if you're grappling (I don't think there IS a means to retain dex to AC for that), if you're climbing without a climb speed or some other ability to retain dex to AC, etc... you lose dex to AC and can be sneak attacked. In other words, we separated the specific condition of being flatfooted, and made it a part of a larger condition of losing your dex to AC.

But yes, two rogues have a very hard time killing each other. Probably the onlyother class that can survive against one of its own as well as a Rogue is the Cleric, only cause of the high saves and healing. (now I need to find that oots comic of the epic cleric duel)

 

[akbearfoot]

Uncanny dodge does not allow a creature to keep its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) when it physically cannot move. If you're grappled, held, helpless, incapacitated, pinned, or stunned, you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. If you're attacked while climbing, you also cannot use your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. Uncanny dodge doesn't allow you to retain your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class in any of these cases.

thats copy/pasted from one of the RotG articles concerning sneak attacks.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

It's a houserule, but in my group UC does not protect from anything that leaves you w/o dex to AC other than surprise, invisibility, and the like.

The good news is, that's not a house rule. It's the way uncanny dodge works. (I assume "UC" is a typo for "UD.") Uncanny dodge only protects against being flat-footed and invisible attackers (and thus arguably, but not certainly, other attackers the character can't see). All the things you mention involve losing Dex, as far as I know, which is distinct from being flat-footed.

In rogue versus rogue fights, victory goes to the -- wait for it -- "feint" at heart!

 

[irdeggman]

The good news is, that's not a house rule. It's the way uncanny dodge works. (I assume "UC" is a typo for "UD.") Uncanny dodge only protects against being flat-footed and invisible attackers (and thus arguably, but not certainly, other attackers the character can't see). All the things you mention involve losing Dex, as far as I know, which is distinct from being flat-footed.

In rogue versus rogue fights, victory goes to the -- wait for it -- "feint" at heart!

QFT

As supporting evidence here's the applicable FAQ entries:

Does uncanny dodge protect a character from losing his Dexterity bonus to AC to a successful feint?

No. Uncanny dodge doesn’t protect you from all situations that would deny you your Dexterity bonus to AC. It only lets you retain your Dexterity bonus if “caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.” A feint doesn’t render a target flatfooted, it just doesn’t allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC against your next melee attack made on or before your next turn.

Since uncanny dodge doesn’t prevent you from being flat-footed, does that mean that a rogue can use sneak attack against a flat-footed character who has uncanny dodge?

No. Rogues don’t get to use sneak attack because a target is flat-footed, they get to use sneak attack because the target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (italics added), which is a normal side effect of being flat-footed. A barbarian (or any other character) with uncanny dodge retains his Dexterity bonus to AC when flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. Therefore, being flat-footed doesn’t render a foe vulnerable to enemy sneak attack.

Does uncanny dodge make you immune to feinting in combat?

No. If uncanny dodge said “you never lose your Dexterity bonus to AC,” the answer would be yes, but that’s not what it says. Uncanny dodge allows you to retain your Dexterity bonus to AC when flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. Although a feint creates a very similar situation (by disallowing the defender from using his Dexterity bonus to AC), it doesn’t specifically render the character flat-footed. (For example, the target of a successful feint still threatens the feinting character.) Thus, uncanny dodge wouldn’t negate the effect.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

The good news is, that's not a house rule. It's the way uncanny dodge works. (I assume "UC" is a typo for "UD.") Uncanny dodge only protects against being flat-footed and invisible attackers (and thus arguably, but not certainly, other attackers the character can't see). All the things you mention involve losing Dex, as far as I know, which is distinct from being flat-footed.

In rogue versus rogue fights, victory goes to the -- wait for it -- "feint" at heart!

Yeah, it was a typo. And really? That is the RAW? I distinctly remember threads on such issues being sharply divided, in particular one in which a barbarian player was arguing he could keep his dex to AC while running. Oh well, I prefer RAI (with "I" being different for me and others, obviously), so it's just a happy coincidence when what I think is RAI is actually RAW.

Not sure I agree with the reasoning of "you can't move" someone else posted, though -- you can still move around in a grapple, it's just a bit restricted. You don't automatically fail reflex saves, or even take a penalty on them.

Oh, and nice pun.

EDIT: At least one of my examples is an actual houserule: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm
"You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing."