Underdark Overview, aka Return of Drow Weaponry

[Mystery Man]

Do people in some groups break out the calculator and calculate how much they have coming?

Why yes, I do have one in my group. He's still suckling on that video game nipple. Slowly weaning him off. I just let him whine and run my game.

 

[drnuncheon]

So you can wield that drow sword for a short while, until you return to the surface. The drow, on the other hand, can use it all the time. So unless this is a campaign that completely takes place in the Underdark, you don't get as much out of this item as the drow does.

OK. Two points here:

1) You get exactly as much use as the drow does. He can't use it if he goes aboveground either.

2) Who cares if someone else gets more use out of it? What does that have to do with anything? A centaur would get more use out of horseshoes of speed than a human. A merman would find a trident of fish control more useful than an elf would. And don't get me started on fire giants and their giant-size flaming greatswords...

Do you want to tell me that they get as much treasure as a monster of their CR, and than the same amount again, and then once again?

Look at the suggested gear value of an NPC, and compare with the average treasure for an encounter of EL equal to the NPC's CR.

I didn't really challenge your point that they get too much. My problem lies with them being to weak even as they have three times (thrice, 3x) the normal allotment ot stuff. It further lies with the practice to give *some* of these NPC's *even more* treasure, but not giving that treasure to the players. Instead of giving them, and only them, pseudo-treasure, why don't we empower *all* NPC's in a way that doesn't make the players cheated or restricted. You could give them a better array of ability scores, or an extra level for the same CR.

But what about it is 'cheating and restricting' players? That's what I don't get.

Let's say you have two creatures. Both have identical hit dice, BAB, etc.

One is a drow, and has +1 speshul Drow weapons and armor.

The other is a monster with natural armor and weapons and the bonus feat: weapon focus.

So what you're saying is this: the characters are being 'cheated' because instead of fighting a monster with built-in weapons and abilities, they fight a monster that gives them a limited-use treasure? They're being cheated because they're getting more treasure?

Huh? How does that work?

A friend of mine played in a (2e) campaign where they fought gnolls (or something else, doesn't really matter). These gnolls had the ability to parry attacks - players would roll really good, even potential crits, but the DM just told them "he parried". The players, on the other hand, didn't have the possibility to parry - not with an item, not with a non-weapon proficiency, they just couldn't do it. It wasn't a mystical power, it was just a damn parry, something players just couldn't do.

What does this have to do with drow weaponry? At all? The PCs are able to use drow weaponry in the same places the drow are. The drow don't get anything the PCs don't get. It's not like the drow can come into the overworld and have their weapons not decay. It's not like the drow have special weapons that are only magical in drow hands.

But hey, lets talk about a dwarven thrower hammer - I guess it's unfair to have that in a game without a dwarven PC? Or an unholy ravager in a party without a blackguard? And that druid antagonist can't use a druid wand unless the party has someone with that spell on their list, right?

I guess giving someone a helm of underwater action in the middle of an undersea adventure is bad, too. How lame! They can't use any of the powers once they go back onto dry land! Unfair to the players!

Come on.

The strangest thing to my mind is that you seem like you'd be OK with all drow getting Greater Weapon Focus & Weapon Specialization for free, because then it's a racial ability and not limited-use equipment - even though it produces basically the same effect, and it arguably 'hoses' the players more, because they don't even get to use the magic stuff while they're in the Underdark.

J

 

[Gez]

So you can wield that drow sword for a short while, until you return to the surface. The drow, on the other hand, can use it all the time. So unless this is a campaign that completely takes place in the Underdark, you don't get as much out of this item as the drow does.

Is that even a point? I fail to see how it can be important for fun or balance that players may be enjoying somethings longer than NPCs. Do the PCs carry around the wives of their slain opponents as sex slaves because they "need to get at least as much of them as the enemies did" ?

Besides, the drow get to use his equipment in one, and only one, fight; and this is the one is which he gets killed. Total enjoyment time: about 2 minutes maximum. The PCs can use it much longer then, making lots of other fights.

 

[jasamcarl]

I think what KaeYoss is trying to say is that this is pretty much a giveaway +2 enhancement to drow npcs you fight in the underdark which isn't reflected in and increased expenditure of their total gear value. I don't know what the costs are, because i don't have the books, so i might be wrong, but most of the posts i have seen imply that the Drowcraft property is free because it disintergrates in sunlight.

If that is so, its probably balanced for PCs because its utility is pretty passive, relying on the DM to set the scene in the underdark, but is overpowered for npcs, because such weapons would only see play when their drawback is essentially meaningless, i.e. the underdark. The face that npcs can use it once is precisly the point, because that means that the 'cost' of wielding a drow weapon is essentially reduced to nill and breaks the assumptions about npc gear value.

Now that being said, this would be incredibly easy to fix. Simply count a drow weapon as a normal weapon with the +2 enhancement and dock the npc the appropriate gp. If pcs retrieve the weapon from the slain drow, count it as the appropriate drowcraft weapon and give them the gp value difference....Problem solved...I think.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

OK. Two points here:

1) You get exactly as much use as the drow does. He can't use it if he goes aboveground either.

But he doesn't go aboveground. PC's usually do, after a short excursion into the underdark

2) Who cares if someone else gets more use out of it? What does that have to do with anything? A centaur would get more use out of horseshoes of speed than a human. A merman would find a trident of fish control more useful than an elf would. And don't get me started on fire giants and their giant-size flaming greatswords...

There's a reason for all this. It's anatomical/genetical. Plus I can take it back with me on the surface and try to sell it. If I did that with a drow sword, I'd be quick to sell - and quicker to get away, when the cheated merchant lets the mercs and assassins loose.

But what about it is 'cheating and restricting' players? That's what I don't get.

Let's say you have two creatures. Both have identical hit dice, BAB, etc.

One is a drow, and has +1 speshul Drow weapons and armor.

The other is a monster with natural armor and weapons and the bonus feat: weapon focus.

So what you're saying is this: the characters are being 'cheated' because instead of fighting a monster with built-in weapons and abilities, they fight a monster that gives them a limited-use treasure? They're being cheated because they're getting more treasure?

Huh? How does that work?

Let's compare a drow NPC and an elf NPC and do the math from there.

What does this have to do with drow weaponry? At all?

It was another example of "enemy only" stuff.

The PCs are able to use drow weaponry in the same places the drow are. The drow don't get anything the PCs don't get. It's not like the drow can come into the overworld and have their weapons not decay. It's not like the drow have special weapons that are only magical in drow hands.

So the sun weapons of surface dwellers go to waste in the Underdark?

But hey, lets talk about a dwarven thrower hammer - I guess it's unfair to have that in a game without a dwarven PC? Or an unholy ravager in a party without a blackguard? And that druid antagonist can't use a druid wand unless the party has someone with that spell on their list, right?

I guess giving someone a helm of underwater action in the middle of an undersea adventure is bad, too. How lame! They can't use any of the powers once they go back onto dry land! Unfair to the players!

I can go take that dwarven thrower, that unholy ravager and that helm of underwater back and at least sell it. I can take the drow sword, too, and give it to the next wizard I meet - they seem to like powders of all kind.

The strangest thing to my mind is that you seem like you'd be OK with all drow getting Greater Weapon Focus & Weapon Specialization for free, because then it's a racial ability and not limited-use equipment

No. I wasn't talking about GWF/GWS, and I wasn't taling about drow only. I was responding to your "NPC'S are too weak, but they get to much treasure already, so give them treasure you can't sell to make them stronger without rewarding the PC's more - but do it only to drow" I say if it has to be GWF & GWS, its there for every NPC, to make them more on par with monsters. But GWF & GWS is a bad Idea, that's something for Fighters.
If it is necessary to buff those poor weak NPC's up a little, lower the Challenge Rating so they're on Par with monsters of the same CR. Your average CR 10 human fighter is Ftr 10 with 16000 - and you claim he's too weak for that CR, a CR 10 monster is more powerful, while giving away only 5800. So we could try making your average CR 10 human fighter a Ftr 11 or 12. This may take care of the problem that that CR 10 Fighter sucks compared to a CR 10 Monster.
My second suggestion was giving them a better array of ability scores. Maybe a combo of both.
If balanced properly, the problem of too-weak NPC's will go away - without the need to give them items that buff them up but can't be sold by the PC's - at least under normal circumstances (they could make an adventure out of finding a underdark merchant, but they might be short on time or unwilling to brave the Underdark....)

- even though it produces basically the same effect, and it arguably 'hoses' the players more, because they don't even get to use the magic stuff while they're in the Underdark.

My method would make more sense. It wouldn't be limited to drow - drowcraft weapons don't help your average human fighter a bit, he's still weak compared to a monster of his CR (at least, that's what you claim) - and would make more sense. If my DM would tell us "guys, I think NPC's suck while being overloaded with treasure. They have to catch up with Monsters. We can do this two ways: I'm giving (some) NPC's even more treasure, but you won't get to sell this treasure, for it is James-Bons-Style stuff with self-destruct machanisms, OR I decrease the CR of NPC's since it's obviously not right." I'm going with Plan B no doubt. It doesn't smell liked some jury-rigged tinkering to me.

 

[Wraithdrit]

What problem? There is no problem as far as most of us are concerned. The drowcrafted weapons cost an additional +1 bonus.

A +1 drowcrafted rapier is around 8kgp (the cost of a +2 rapier). In the Faezressness or near Earth Nodes it counts as a +3 rapier. Outside those zones it counts as a +1 rapier. In sunlight it has a fortitude save required per day or it turns to dust. An oil can be applied to protect it for a day.

Why is this a big deal? The NPC is 'charged' for a +2 weapon. They get a +3 weapon in CERTAIN places. If the PC gets it he has a weapon that is +1/+3 and was charged for treasure as +2, why is this so bad? I guess I just fail to see this being some giant player screwing conspiracy or horribly bad precident to set.

I for one do not COUNT on my NPCs dieing the moment they encounter the PCs. They do things like withdraw and attack again later. They come after the PCs at home or whereever for revenge. In those cases, they better stock up on the right oil, because they are gonna need it just as much as the PCs do.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Is that even a point? I fail to see how it can be important for fun or balance that players may be enjoying somethings longer than NPCs. Do the PCs carry around the wives of their slain opponents as sex slaves because they "need to get at least as much of them as the enemies did" ?

You consider wives "equipment"? I take it you're not married.

Besides, the drow get to use his equipment in one, and only one, fight; and this is the one is which he gets killed. Total enjoyment time: about 2 minutes maximum. The PCs can use it much longer then, making lots of other fights.

You know that player characters are poor, poor creatures. They were never kids, for they are created as adults, with a full skill set.

Sounds weird?

My point is: While doesn't seem so, there is a game world outside of the game time (or there is supposed to be - of course the players don't see it, for this isn't Big Brother, but these high-level archmages and master assassins don't come as an instand mixture "Add water for your archmage" - they were around before that. )

 

[Kae'Yoss]

What problem? There is no problem as far as most of us are concerned. The drowcrafted weapons cost an additional +1 bonus.

A +1 drowcrafted rapier is around 8kgp (the cost of a +2 rapier). In the Faezressness or near Earth Nodes it counts as a +3 rapier. Outside those zones it counts as a +1 rapier. In sunlight it has a fortitude save required per day or it turns to dust. An oil can be applied to protect it for a day.

Only that the drow are almost always in the Night Below and so practically never have that drawback. It's the same as giving elves weapons with "sunsteel" - a steel that costs +1 and gives +2 when not in the Underdark. I take 10, thank you very much.

Why is this a big deal? The NPC is 'charged' for a +2 weapon. They get a +3 weapon in CERTAIN places. If the PC gets it he has a weapon that is +1/+3 and was charged for treasure as +2, why is this so bad? I guess I just fail to see this being some giant player screwing conspiracy or horribly bad precident to set.

No, the Player - assuming it is a normal Character who is only down there because of a single, short mission - gets nothing. He can't take the weapon with him and use it, he can't take it with him and sell it. So he can use that only for a very short while. And finding a friendly merchant in the Underdark is tricky, so he probably can't sell it here.

And there's another point that hasn't been considered: For an Underdark Campaign, practically gives drow characters at least 10.000 gp in magic stuff for free (pay 8000 for a weapon that is, as far as you're concerned, +3 and worth 18000.) and get +3 weapons really early. It bears comparison to the Ring of the Darkhidden - that one is seriously overpowered in an Underdark Only campaign.

So one way or the other, this screws up - in one case, big time.

I for one do not COUNT on my NPCs dieing the moment they encounter the PCs. They do things like withdraw and attack again later. They come after the PCs at home or whereever for revenge. In those cases, they better stock up on the right oil, because they are gonna need it just as much as the PCs do.

No. They need, say, a tenday's supply of that oil, maybe less, depending on how long they're taking to try to kill the PC's and die in the process. The players - if they chose to use that item, would need a decade's supply of that oil.

 

[Wraithdrit]

You act like the players need to go into the Underdark, have on fight and then run screaming holding aloft their new found treasures, ready for the huge chunks of cash they are going to get for them.

I see instead a perfectly usable weapon that the players will identify, know the limitations of and compensate for as long as necessary or feasible.

They may choose to camp underground instead of returning to the surface. They keep the weapon in a bag of holding and only pull it out when they need to use it or while in the underdark. Etc, etc, etc. Its not like we are advocating an ability that instantly turns an item to dust the moment a PC touches it.

 

[Endur]

Wraithdrit is right. Drowcraft is not a problem. For several reasons.

1) Faeezressness is no longer all of the underdark. Its only in some parts of the underdark. its kind of like a mineral. You don't find gold everywhere you look underground. What does this mean for drowcraft? It means that only in certain particular parts of the underdark will you even get the drowcraft bonus.

2) The bonus isn't enhancement, its luck bonus on attack or deflection on armor. i.e. the drowcraft armor bonus doesn't stack with shield of faith, rings of protection, protection from alignment or anything that gives you a deflection bonus. The Drow weapon bonus doesn't stack with divine favor, prayer, etc.

3) PCs are not entitled to keep every magic item they find. If one crumbles to dust, it is not an issue. Or if it is evil aligned. Or is +5 for NPCs, but only +1 for PCs.

4) Besides, most PCs don't go down into the underdark for an hour, kill a drow NPC and take his items back to the surface. An expedition to the underdark should take weeks or months. Because you can't teleport down there (unless very high level) and there are lots of intersecting caves, which could take you a very long time to get to your destination.

What problem? There is no problem as far as most of us are concerned. The drowcrafted weapons cost an additional +1 bonus.

A +1 drowcrafted rapier is around 8kgp (the cost of a +2 rapier). In the Faezressness or near Earth Nodes it counts as a +3 rapier. Outside those zones it counts as a +1 rapier. In sunlight it has a fortitude save required per day or it turns to dust. An oil can be applied to protect it for a day.

Only that the drow are almost always in the Night Below and so practically never have that drawback. It's the same as giving elves weapons with "sunsteel" - a steel that costs +1 and gives +2 when not in the Underdark. I take 10, thank you very much.

No, the Player - assuming it is a normal Character who is only down there because of a single, short mission - gets nothing. He can't take the weapon with him and use it, he can't take it with him and sell it. So he can use that only for a very short while. And finding a friendly merchant in the Underdark is tricky, so he probably can't sell it here.