Understanding the Edition Wars (and other heated arguments)

So? Maybe they are passionate because they are actually right? Or maybe they are passionate because they are the best informed? Or maybe they are passionate because there is something tangible at stake for them if in a larger sense, there 'side' loses the argument.

In the realm of hobby games, being "right" or best informed, does not excuse treating people poorly, Celebrim. If you treat your fellow gamers like dirt, you're wrong, no matter how technically "right" you may be.

And, if you have something tangible at stake that you value more highly than the persons of the gamers you're talking with, you probably should be acting in "professional" mode, and still treating folks well.

But there is for many people something real and a tangible cost to their happiness involved by just conceding the argument and trying to learn to like New Coke.

And your right to pursue your happiness ends when it starts infringing on the happiness of others.
 

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In the realm of hobby games, being "right" or best informed, does not excuse treating people poorly, Celebrim. If you treat your fellow gamers like dirt, you're wrong, no matter how technically "right" you may be.

Who is talking about hobby games? I thought we were talking about arguments generally. I don't dare talk about particular games directly In fact, the example I offered was cola wars precisely to steer away from politics, editions, the alignment system and other things that tend to blow up. I could have offered Mac vs. PC, but I've seen some pretty heated Mac vs. PC discussions. Are we passionate about cola here too?

And I don't think I by any means implied that the people in the cola wars hated the people who didn't drink thier product, or that their love of cola justified treating people badly.

And your right to pursue your happiness ends when it starts infringing on the happiness of others.

This is not I think anything that anyone is going to disagree with. So what exactly are we talking about?
 

Being passionate about a point of view is great. I love a good discussion about editions and they are usually fruitful when people on both sides politely disagree. Where things fall apart is when posters get emotional or hostile (directly through attacks or indirectly through baiting --such as implying people who disagree are less creative or not as smart). If you assume good faith and take a step back when someone riles you up, an edition war can be fun. But they can become a nightmare when folks resort to sniping, insults, passive aggressive posts etc.
 

Thanks for posting this. What's great about these things (the things listed in the article is that) once you/we:

  1. realize its something we all do
  2. realize it's part of how we all operate, to some degree or another (ie, it's not just 'defective people who do')
  3. realize it often hinders what we truly want or are trying to achieve
  4. look for it, and see it in operation in your life/conversations/etc

... then we cease to be fully at its mercy and can begin to interrupt those automatic reactions that lead to thermonuclear heated words and can plot a different course towards what you actually want.

And, perhaps, even begin to have interest and compassion for ourselves and each other, rather than contempt.

peace,

Kannik
 

Who is talking about hobby games?

It seems that I am. You've got a problem with me bringing this around to a point directly relevant to the "General RPG Discussion" Forum in which this sits?

This is not I think anything that anyone is going to disagree with.

They won't publicly disagree, no. But, a good number of folks feel there are justifications for infringing on the happiness of others - they certainly try to offer us justifications for their actions when we moderate them for being rude.

One of the top two such justifications is some variation of, "But it's The Troof!"* Being correct is often used to justify acting like a jerk. The moderation staff doesn't accept that rationale, of course.

You see, the same justifications you suggested for passion are ones we are given for acting badly. I severely doubt that's coincidental, so it seemed best to call it out.




* The other top justification is, "He did it first!"
 

The problem is calling it a War to begin with. Wars have a definite end. We Take this Land. We take this person, we kill thier leader.

There's no way of doing that in the edition war, it solely depends on who defines winning, and that's where the arguments come one.

Factually, Pathfinder got marketshare, in the business world, that can be seen as a victory. It is consistently outselling its competitor, another plus.

However,

4e grew a different user base while maintaining a good portion of their customers, which seemed to be its primary goal, that can be seen as a victory. They also created a product easily marketable into other media, allowing it to gain revenue shares outside of RPG books.

IN the end, this wasn't a war, like we all thought a few years ago, it's two businesses competing in a market with different goals.
 

The problem is calling it a War to begin with. Wars have a definite end. We Take this Land. We take this person, we kill thier leader.

Individual battles may have definite ends. Wars can last for decades. If you include the follow-on conflicts from grudges, well, they can last nigh forever.

IN the end, this wasn't a war, like we all thought a few years ago, it's two businesses competing in a market with different goals.

When we talk about Edition Wars, we aren't talking about the battle between the companies. We are talking about the arguments between fans.
 

It seems that I am. You've got a problem with me bringing this around to a point directly relevant to the "General RPG Discussion" Forum in which this sits?

Not at all, so long as it logically follows from what you quote. If it doesn't logically follow from what you quote, is it directly relevant.

However, your point is not directly relevant to the hobby gaming industry alone, in as much as "In the realm of hobby games, being "right" or best informed, does not excuse treating people poorly, Celebrim.", could be shortened down to, "Being 'right' or best informed, does not excuse treating people poorly, Umbran."

They won't publicly disagree, no. But, a good number of folks feel there are justifications for infringing on the happiness of others - they certainly try to offer us justifications for their actions when we moderate them for being rude.

One of the top two such justifications is some variation of, "But it's The Troof!"* Being correct is often used to justify acting like a jerk. The moderation staff doesn't accept that rationale, of course.

Naturally, I wouldn't expect them too, although, as long as we are on the subject, being incorrect is even less of a justification for acting like a jerk. And, while we both agree that, "He did it first." is terrible excuse for acting like a jerk, I would like to think that acting like a jerk first has even less of an excuse. So, perhaps we should just simply boil this point down to, "Don't act like a jerk." I think we can both agree on that as well.

You see, the same justifications you suggested for passion are ones we are given for acting badly. I severely doubt that's coincidental, so it seemed best to call it out.

Allow me to continue being on topic by pointing out that the theme of the post that was linked to was, "5 Logical Fallacies that Make you More Wrong that you Think." It's a good title, but may I suggest that there was a subtext to the essay, which was, "5 Logical Fallacies that Make you Act More Like a Jerk than you Think." They are as the discussion makes clear, and the humor gently mocks, somewhat related. And also, while the title was perfectly appropriate, I think it holds true that the five were chosen in a semi-random way, and that any given logical fallacy could be expanded on in much the same way to show how reliance on this logical fallacy tended to make one more certain about their beliefs and rightness in the argument than they should be. And that, having convinced themselves of their rightness, that they would then go on to act more like a jerk.

So in short, because it is often hard to know who is acting like a jerk, we should be very careful about basing our arguments on collections of logical fallacies in particular and when we see ourselves doing it, then we should probably pause and reflect a bit. Passion and emotion are good markers for stopping and reflecting on what you are saying. Lots of people say things in a moment of heat that they later regret. But in my opinion, logical fallacies are an even better marker for stopping and reflecting, because the people that use them - as the article points out - seldom go on to regret them and tend to be even less aware of when they are employing them than they are of their own emotional state.

It would be a shame I think if we started to equate disagreeing with someone with being a jerk. I think we can disagree and even hold diametricly opposing positions and yet still have something to talk about without being jerks. And at EnWorld quite a bit of us are self-identified 'geeks'. Among other qualities, we are indentified by our passion for things that other people aren't passionate about - like for example we were passionate about games as adults back before being a game playing adult was 'cool'. So, while passion can lead us astray, its hardly a universal marker of wrongness or jerkiness.

Ultimately we have to admit that jerkiness or offensiveness is in the eye of the beholder. Two reasonable people can disagree over whether or not someone is being a jerk. Something that rubs someone the wrong way might not rub someone else the same way. The real secret whenever you are debating over something is simply to assume good faith on the part of the people in the discussion, and not be too quick to judge on the basis of your speculation about their motives, or how you classify people in your heads, or whose side you are on, or whether accepting their side might make you feel uncomfortable, or how you are emotionally responding to their words yourself. Instead, I think you should try to confine yourself to what they actually said, and confine yourself to that without the assumption that there was some hidden agenda going on.

Or do you really think I was trying to hurt someone?
 
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If any Alien Intelligence finds our Internet message boards, they'll have to nuke us from orbit, just to make sure we don't infect the rest of the Cosmos.

Or maybe this is all Loki's doing...
 

Individual battles may have definite ends. Wars can last for decades. If you include the follow-on conflicts from grudges, well, they can last nigh forever.



When we talk about Edition Wars, we aren't talking about the battle between the companies. We are talking about the arguments between fans.
I know, I didnt return to Enworld for nearly 2 years because of it. But in realization, I am saying that it was mislabeled as war and everyone took it way too personally. There's no such thing as better. That's why I like this article, it really does shed some light and make the whole "Edition War" a moot argument between people who have no stake in either companies.

It's like watching a football game, and a fan jumps on field to dispute a call. The coach of your team will be upset, as will the opposing team. Over these last few years, many industry people from both sides nave never take a stance because their bottom line is going to be the same whether they hate the other product or not.
 

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