Unearthed Arcana Damage Variants Part 2

[Sado]

Ok, I've been lookng over the damage variants from UA, and while they all have good points, two ideas seem most to my liking:

1. Injury damage variant
2. Vitality/Wound Points + Armor as Damage Reduction

The first option is pretty straightforward. I like the simplicity of not having to keep up with HP and avoiding the ever-growing discrepency between classes as they level up. It basically boils down to a wound system with everyone on nearly equal footing, and skill/ability playing a bigger part.

The second option (which is my favorite of the two) may or may not have problems. I like the distinction between tiring out and becoming exhausted (vitality), and actually being injured (wound). As far as DR goes, it moves combat from the normal "abstract" system (where AC is everything that makes it more difficult to damage/injure someone) to two different types of defenses (those that make you harder to hit and those that make you harder to injure if you are hit).

Can anyone think of or point out any issues that may arise from combining V/W Points and Armor as DR?

 

[kenobi65]

Can anyone think of or point out any issues that may arise from combining V/W Points and Armor as DR?

These two are combined in the Star Wars RPG. In that game, Armor only provides its DR against WP damage (since VP damage doesn't represent a hit, but a near-miss that tires you out). Thus, for heroic characters (i.e., those with VPs), armor only comes into play infrequently -- when you run out of VP, or when you get critted (since that goes straight to WPs). Of course, in those situations, you wind up being glad you have it.

What SW also uses is the Class Defense Bonus rules -- those bonuses help your AC against *all* attacks.

If you use one without the other, you get a situation where it's easy to knock away a PC's VPs, so I'd suggest using the Class Defense Bonus in addition to what you're proposing.

(Alternately, you could use Armor as DR, but have it apply against *all* damage, not just WPs....but that sort of goes against the spirit of what VPs are, IMO.)

 

[dekrass]

I've run a couple of games with VP/WP and armor as DR.
In both of them I used the SWRPG version of armor. kenobi65 brought up the main points of that.

I don't think I would use WP without armor as DR.

 

[Sado]

These two are combined in the Star Wars RPG. In that game, Armor only provides its DR against WP damage (since VP damage doesn't represent a hit, but a near-miss that tires you out). Thus, for heroic characters (i.e., those with VPs), armor only comes into play infrequently -- when you run out of VP, or when you get critted (since that goes straight to WPs). Of course, in those situations, you wind up being glad you have it.

I knew SW used V/W Points, but I didn't know it also used DR. And I thought I was being clever. Still good point about DR only applying to WP loss.

What SW also uses is the Class Defense Bonus rules -- those bonuses help your AC against *all* attacks.

I'm not really crazy about the Class Defense Bonus. I can't really explain why, it just seems like it takes away from the usefulness of armor. Maybe if I made combat less abstract and gave a parry roll using the DB? I also have a small issue with the DB charts as written in UA, specifically with the Monk having the worst DB progression. It seems to me like a Monk's DB should be pretty high. But they have the Druid with a higher DB. I don't get that.

Would it wear out character too much and too soon not to give them the DB along with DR and W/V Points?

 

[kenobi65]

I also have a small issue with the DB charts as written in UA, specifically with the Monk having the worst DB progression. It seems to me like a Monk's DB should be pretty high. But they have the Druid with a higher DB. I don't get that.

The Class Defense bonuses in UA are clearly meant to represent / mimic the relative amount of "real" armor those classes typically wear. Monks are in the worst progression, because they typically don't wear armor.

Also, the monk would still get to add his Wis bonus to AC, as well as the bonus he gets as he goes up in level as a monk. The Class Defense bonus should stack with those.

Finally, keep in mind that, unlike in SW, you've got other things that might add to AC, such as Rings of Protection.

Would it wear out character too much and too soon not to give them the DB along with DR and W/V Points?

I'm honestly not sure. What I do now realize, in reading the UA rules on "Armor as DR", is that armor would still offer some bonus to AC (in addition to the DR), so it might not work quite like SW. I'd say, give it a try, and if you feel like attacks are hitting too often, tinker with it.

 

[kenobi65]

The other thing I'd strongly caution you about, in regards to VP/WP, is how lethal crits become.

Your typical character isn't going to have many more than 12 or 14 WP. When you start dealing with monsters that can deal a whole lot of damage with a single blow (because they're large, strong, using a big weapon, or all of the above), a confirmed crit will almost undoubtedly kill your typical PC outright.

For example: hill giants are tough, but not tremendously scary for PCs of comparable level to them. But, a hill giant does 2d8+10 damage with its greatclub -- an average of 19 points. That's enough to kill a weak (below-average Con) character outright on a crit, and a good roll will even kill a strong (above-average Con) character. Once you start dealing with nastier monsters, it gets even worse. A fire giant does 3d6+15 damage...that's 26.5 on average.

Armor as DR certainly helps with some of this...but the DR that armor provides isn't going to provide enough "soak" to overcome a good hit.

This makes Toughness a more-interesting feat for PCs under a VP/WP system -- in Star Wars, Toughness adds 3 WPs. You might consider having Improved Toughness add 1 WP per character level under this system.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I used to hate VP/WP, but working with SWRPG it's starting to grow on me. It's certainly cinematic.

I think for my average run-of-the-mill game I'd stick with my new classic combo: Class Defense, Damage Conversion, Strict Encumbrance, and Massive Damage Thresholds.

VP/WP seems to degenerate into He Who Crits First after a while. With MDT, a good normal hit can still "one shot out" you. Damage Conversion (converts the armor's defense bonus in Lethal damage to Nonlethal) keeps between-fights recoup possible without lots of healing, yet not so much that characters are either Dead or Chipper the next morning.

By using strict encumbrance rules (the encumbrance Armor Check Penalty of Medium and Heavy loads applies to attack rolls as well), I keep characters from wearing plate mail to the grocery store. People take a light armor of some sort ... bullet proof vest, leather armor, chain shirt ... mostly for the damage conversion and a bump to AC. The class defense keeps everybody from getting ripped to shreds.

(though I'm seriously considering reworking the Fast class's defense bonus away from being so front-loaded)

--fje