D&D 5E Unfair Scrying

[Fauchard1520]

If you’re the victim of scrying, there’s a feeling of powerlessness that comes with the experience. When a BBEG points their magic mirror your way, they suddenly know where you are, what your plans are, and (most likely) how to defeat you. That’s not a good feeling. It engenders paranoia, simmering resentment, and a deep-seated desire for revenge. And while you may want your players to hate the villains, you don’t want them to hate you.

It's not just scrying either. If you do decide to make power-plays with magic — unlimited counterspells, teleporting your villains, or otherwise using abilities that players can’t reasonably counter — think long and hard about the impact on the game. Players can scent a whiff of unfair GM-fiat a mile away. Dressing it up as “some of the casters in this setting are more powerful than you” is fooling exactly no one. Because railroading is a dirty word, even if you dress up in the rules.

(Comic for illustrative purposes.)

 

[Lyxen]

And on the other hand, railroading or a contrived plot can occur without the help of scrying or teleportation, so let's not make too many confusions here.

Also, there is a save to fail, the duration is not that long, and although invisible, the sensor can be detected by many means, including passive perception depending on the DM's ruling. Moreover, there are means that are not that complicated to defend against it.

And in some cases, if player properly, it can even become an extremely interesting disinformation device: if you notice its presence, you can weave whatever you want in front of the sensor, for example, and mislead the viewer.

It's a good plot device, one that is often at the disposal of the PCs only, and not to be deemed "unfair" in and of itself. It can be played fairly, and it can be very interesting.

 

[HammerMan]

If you’re the victim of scrying, there’s a feeling of powerlessness that comes with the experience. When a BBEG points their magic mirror your way, they suddenly know where you are, what your plans are, and (most likely) how to defeat you. That’s not a good feeling. It engenders paranoia, simmering resentment, and a deep-seated desire for revenge. And while you may want your players to hate the villains, you don’t want them to hate you.

It's not just scrying either. If you do decide to make power-plays with magic — unlimited counterspells, teleporting your villains, or otherwise using abilities that players can’t reasonably counter — think long and hard about the impact on the game. Players can scent a whiff of unfair GM-fiat a mile away. Dressing it up as “some of the casters in this setting are more powerful than you” is fooling exactly no one. Because railroading is a dirty word, even if you dress up in the rules.

(Comic for illustrative purposes.)

there is a creepy factor too... reading advice on Curse of Strahd had people jokeing (not on enworld) about Strahd watching player bath...

 

[Swarmkeeper]

And in some cases, if player properly, it can even become an extremely interesting disinformation device: if you notice its presence, you can weave whatever you want in front of the sensor, for example, and mislead the viewer.

It's a good plot device, one that is often at the disposal of the PCs only, and not to be deemed "unfair" in and of itself. It can be played fairly, and it can be very interesting.

This is good stuff right here.

The topic is best approached with the baseline assumption that the DM is playing in good faith. From there, a DM using scrying sparingly, with an allowance for providing clues to the players/PCs that scrying is going on, we have a potentially very fun mechanic driving some interesting story decisions.

 

[Weiley31]

Isn't that why there are defenses against Scrying? Like I still can understand how it can suck, but I thought there are defenses against it.

 

[the Jester]

Using the tools and tactics available to npcs and foes is not railroading, is completely fair, and should always be on the table, or the pcs aren't earning the xp they get for defeating those foes.

 

[DEFCON 1]

If any players actually feel this way as described, it strikes me more as players who care more about "winning" than they do engaging with the story.

If your PC was being scryed upon... how would your character react? What would they do? What precautions would they then take? What actions would they push to the forefront? All those questions are much engaging to the game than just getting mad that when the board game starts the DM's monsters will have the rules more in their favor. Especially considering that the DM can ALWAYS have the rules in their favor with or without the use of scrying. Heck, a simple change of monster CR can do the exact same thing.

 

[Oofta]

Couple of things. First, scrying only lasts 10 minutes and if a save is successful it can't be used again for 24 hours. How lucky would you have to be to eavesdrop at exactly the right moment? It does let you look at the target and you can hear, but I would rule that you can't look around. So you may know the target is walking through the woods, but that's it.

Scrying also can be detected. If your world is high enough magic that scrying is a regular concern buy a lantern of revealing. It's an uncommon magic item that will make the glowing orb visible. Set it on the table before you discuss plans.

Or just spend time discussing bogus plans. With enough red herrings, the enemy won't know what is true.

 

[Stalker0]

If your PC was being scryed upon... how would your character react? What would they do? What precautions would they then take? What actions would they push to the forefront? All those questions are much engaging to the game than just getting mad that when the board game starts the DM's monsters will have the rules more in their favor.

I have to agree here. Now if every tom,dick, and harry bad guy in your game is using scry, ok that gets old (everything endlessly repeated gets old).

But if the BBEG of your game is a wizard he's spying on you....I mean that's part of what makes him the BBEG. You are SUPPOSED to feel paranoia and resentment again him, he's the bad guy!


Teleports are the same way. If all your enemies are teleporting away, yeah that's old. If the BBEG does it, than he becomes a reccuring villain, and I find there is nothing that gives players more satisfaction than finally getting the one that got away.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

In a setting where the various forms of scrying are more common, I would imagine the value of lead would be higher as well. All those lead-lined rooms to prevent scrying could get expensive. And every ruler worth his kingdom would have such a room set up where all sensitive decisions would be made, wars planned, etc. And maybe rather than the "tin-foil" hat, we have lead liners for caps and helmets to block mind reading.