Unhappy Pally - Righteous Rage + Vicious Weapon

SamusekTDS

First Post
Ok, so I have an unhappy player pissed off with the 4th ed paladin... he's up to 4th level now as a dragonborn serving pelor STR 19, WIS 14, CHA 14.

Since we were obviously new to 4th when he made the PC, he now believes the class to be fundamentally broken for those stats (power selection etc) and doesn't like Pelor's radiance (as its WIS based), and wants me to now allow him to use the FR god Tempus feat Righteous Rage (encounter, auto crit on hit) with the power combo of having a vicious waraxe (extra d12 on crit).

I drew the line here.

He says he is so unhappy with me disallowing this he either wants me to allow this, to scrap the PC and make a whole new character in a new class, or quit the campaign.

My reasons against it:
- I'm playing only with Core, not FR, so I want him to stay as Pelor and not switch to Tempus
- If I "houseruled" it as a Pelor power I still find it unbalanced compared to most feats/powers
- I have to make so many allowances and "retro-fits" for him to do this it seems slightly unfair to other players

In his defense:
- He hasn't seemed to be terribly combat effective at times (misses alot, does not do heavy damage overall), and he sees the rogues (we have 2) always flanking and doing crazy damage, and the warlock hits more often since he's against reflex not AC.
- He got a magic holy symbol at one point, but all the powers it is used with are wis/cha based and he takes mostly str based powers since he feels he would miss all the time with them

Are we exposing real flaws about the paladin? Am I beiong unreasonable? Is there a better way to handle/houserule this? How powerful a fighter should a Paladin be allowed to get? Is he fundamentally unbalanced (I mean as a class, not the player himself, LOL)?
---
Sam.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

keterys

First Post
RroT is almost guaranteed to get errata-ed at some point... and yeah, if there's no Tempus then there's no Tempus.

That said, quite seriously, if he's not having fun then let him remake a character.
 

CubeKnight

First Post
If he wants to do crazy damage, then he gotta go with a Striker. If a Paladin (a Defender) could do as much damage as a Rogue but with full armor/shield proficiency, tons more HP, and lots more HS... what would be the point of Rogues?
 

infocynic

First Post
Encourage him to take STR-based powers and let him retrain any of his CHA-based powers to WIS-based ones. Then give him a magic sword instead of a magic holy symbol. He may want to take a superior weapon proficiency like bastard sword or waraxe (he'll hit more with the sword but do more damage with the axe) if he has a feat available. Remember that you don't get your deity's channel divinity feat for free, so if he's unhappy with the Pelor feat he should retrain it for the weapon proficiency. A Str-based paladin is a little harder to play than a CHA-based one, and at some levels there are just no good choices (they're all CHA-based) but divine power should help, and that's out in a few months.
 

Kinneus

Explorer
He says he is so unhappy with me disallowing this he either wants me to allow this, to scrap the PC and make a whole new character in a new class, or quit the campaign.
This seems like your solution right there.
Righteous Rage of Tempus is generally considered to be a little overpowered... or, at least, to be the most powerful Channel Divinity feat out there. It's perfectly legitimate of you to not allow it in your campaign because you believe it would be overpowered, or believe it would break the setting.
However, it is also perfectly legitimate for a player to be bored or annoyed with his role, and I don't think it's fair that you force him to continue playing a paladin if the role really doesn't appeal to him. Allow him to make a new character with his new rules-saviness; everybody wins.
Just be sure to impress upon him that a Defender will never do the same amount of damage as a flanking Rogue. Nobody does more damage than a flanking Rogue. Damage simply isn't what being a Defender is about.
 

fba827

Adventurer
I would not allow the FR Channel Divinity Feat because it was an upfront statement about what gods were being used. And, the FR Channel Divinity feats are not at the same level as the PHB ones (in my opinion).

Toss my voice in with those saying to let him remake his PC in a new class.

Obviously, I can't read his mind to know what he's thinking. But based on the info available here, I think it might be a good idea to step back and explain the 4 basic PC roles and then ask which sounds most appealing to him -- try not to let personal prejudice come in when describing them, each role has some good and some bad (low/high defenses low/high hp low/high attack power low/high damage power and so on).

You may also want to mention that, in addition to their main role, they have a secondary role... so a paladin is mainly a defender with a little leader capability, and so on.
 

I think letting him retool the character could be the best solution. I'm not really a fan of the paladin until paragon levels, because so far there aren't many options (if you're high-Str, you only really have 2 powers to choose from at each level, instead of the 4+ other classes get). That might change with divine power.

Assuming he wants to keep the same "character" (personality, backstory, etc.) just with different powers and such, I'd suggest a fighter multiclassed to cleric. He gets about the same amount of healing per day, and he can have a high STR and moderate WIS (since wisdom helps with opportunity attacks). Or possibly a fighter/paladin, if he still wants his Charisma bump to matter.

I'd say let him retool to Str 20, Con 15, Dex 8, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 12 (base stats 17, 14, 14, 10, 10, 8, +2 Str/Cha, and +1 to Str and Con at 4th level). He might change those stats depending on the type of weapon he uses.
 

Obryn

Hero
Pretty much everyone in my game has a different character than they started with... I've found that people like playing classes in 4e that they never really liked before; and that they hate classes they used to love.

Now that you've had some 4e time under your belts, opening up the floor to allow everyone a new character, should they choose (or the option to rebuild an old character) might not hurt.

-O
 


Stalker0

Legend
Go with allowing a new character, I've seen RROT in action, it is broken:)

I think this is common with any new edition. People are getting a feel for how and what they want to play, no harm in needing a few tries to get the swing of things.
 

tmatk

Explorer
All he has to do is rework his character as fighter and take Rain of Blows; he'll be outperforming the strikers in no time.
 

Trebor62

First Post
I throw in with the let him redesign or rebuild group. The game is about having fun for the DM and the players. So keep Tempus out but let the player rework his character into something he will enjoy.
 

SamusekTDS

First Post
yeah - i guess i'll have to reroll with him... Its too bad because as a DM I liked having that particular player play that class, plus I had some cool Pelor-related stuff planned that will have to be NPCed as there are no other Divine characters in the party.

We have 2x Rogues, a warlock and a warden, so hopefully he goes for a controller for more mass damage balance - 4e battles are still taking WAAAAAY too long.

Though cleric multiclassing might be something i suggest to him.

Are the FR feats/skills/powers designed to be more powerful overall then core? or balanced differently? I dont own any FR stuff so I don't know, but if so that would be a less arbitrary reason not to use any.
 

Lord Ernie

First Post
yeah - i guess i'll have to reroll with him... Its too bad because as a DM I liked having that particular player play that class, plus I had some cool Pelor-related stuff planned that will have to be NPCed as there are no other Divine characters in the party.

We have 2x Rogues, a warlock and a warden, so hopefully he goes for a controller for more mass damage balance - 4e battles are still taking WAAAAAY too long.

Though cleric multiclassing might be something i suggest to him.

Are the FR feats/skills/powers designed to be more powerful overall then core? or balanced differently? I dont own any FR stuff so I don't know, but if so that would be a less arbitrary reason not to use any.
Fighter multi-classed to cleric is a very effective (be sure to pick up warpriest at Paragon) defender, and with the right weapon selection, he'll be doing more damage too. Not more than the rogues, of course.

As for combat taking too long: first off, do the PC's hit often enough at all? With 2 rogues and a warlock, they should be tearing through their enemies at an alarming pace. Second, there were a couple of threads on this board on how to speed up combat, but I don't seem to be able to find them.

Lastly, while there are some more useful feats amongst the Channel Divinity feats in the FRPG (I don't consider that bad - some of the PHB ones just plain suck), they're not really more powerful overall. It's just RroT that goes into ridiculously overpowered levels.
 

Dr.Cornelius

First Post
RRoT is a bit overpowered, but nowhere near as broken as Battlerager or Rain of Blows or Reckless+Bloodclaw combo or any number of other things. Are the other characters in the party fully optimized? If so, RRoT might not be out of place.

How often does your party encounter undead? Clerics and Paladins are balanced with undead in mind. If you are playing a campaign without significant undead presence, may want to throw the divine types a useful magic item or something to balance it out.

As to Tempus not being in your campaign, don't feel that your hands are tied by specific fluff. 4e specifically encourages DMs to adapt feats, powers, dieties, etc. to their particular world. Keep the crunch, rework the fluff and everyone can be happy.

If the Dragonborn Paladin wants to do more damage, there are a few straightforward ways:

- Upgrade to superior weapon, or even consider a 2H weapon like Fullblade or Heavy Flail
- Fighter Multiclass is primarily for picking up the broken Rain of Blows at 4th level. Alternatie is multiclass to Ranger or Barbarian and spend 4th level on a damage feat. Go Ranger if you want one or two extra d8 per encounter, Barbarian if you want to go nova 1/day. These have added benefit over Fighter of picking up Perception training which is very useful.
 

Wepwawet

Explorer
If you feel RRoT is too powerful, and you want the player to keep Pelor, you could rework that power: call it Righteous Rage of Pelor and make the power do the same thing but only against undead (and maybe some other type). That will make him do big damage once in a while, while keeping the "undead slayer" flavour, typical of Pelor, but adapted to a Paladin (greatweapon cleric)

Also Fighter multiclass can be effective for a strength Paladin, because he can have strength powers at that level where they're all charisma.

And remember that a strength Paladin has no use for a holy symbol.
 

eamon

Explorer
I'd say: don't screw the player for not knowing how to build an effective 4e character on the first try.

And in any case, what's the point in limiting retooling options? As long as the character is the same, does it really matter?

I'd consider objecting if the character intended to go from strength-paladin to charisma paladin just claiming it were minor retooling, but if it's just a question of a stat point here or there, and a feat here or there - that's just implementation details.

To be sure, the player shouldn't hope to compete with strikers in terms of damage while playing a paladin - that's being unrealistic. He should revel in sustaining the enemies blows and holding back the BBEG, but big damage is a hopeless quest.

Finally, I find the case for Core-only to be much weaker in 4e than in 3.5. I used to run a core+any 1 splat per char campaign in 3.5 and I've gotta say, in 4e "anything goes including dragaon magazine" is way more balanced than core only in 3.5, let alone core+1splat in 3.5. Not that there aren't things I find problematic, but they're few and far between.
 

Lauberfen

First Post
My first character in 4th was a dragonborn paladin, and he's been my main character for much of the time as well. he's now up to 7th level, and I've loved playing him almost all the time.

I started with Str 18, Cha 15 and Wis 16, and he's now Str 18, Cha 16 Wis 16 (the extra point went into con, for an extra surge, +1HP per surge and +1 damage on breath- I have no regrets so far).

He has mainly Strength based powers, with Charisma powers where they are outstanding. He has multiclassed in warlord, and swapped his 7th level encounter for Lions roar. He currently has a +1 longsword and no holy symbol.

I'd give your player the opportunity to tweak the character to work a bit better, or change to something else. Paladins are hard to manage, but good fun if you get it right. I think he seems to expect a channel divinity feat to be worth taking. He's wrong.
 

Obryn

Hero
So, apropos of nothing, is anyone else sold on Crusader's Weapons for Paladins? (And avengers, and battle clerics?)

I mean, it has to be a mace or hammer, but seriously. It's like a Bard's songblades - an all-in-one weapon+implement combo. What's more, the properties are pretty amazing... Free radiant damage whenever I'd like? Yes, please.

-O
 

Mallus

Legend
First of all... let him rebuild/swap characters until he's satisfied. This is always good advice. Recreational activities should be fun.

Second... 4th edition paladins are fine, particularly the Dragonborn variety, though I really recommend going CHA then STR, or forsaking STR entirely thanks to the Martial Training feat.

Third... paladins take a few levels to come into their own. By 6th, thanks to Wrath of the Gods --good even if you 'only' have a CHA of 14-- and items like the Iron Armbands of Might (AV, +2 to melee damage, kinda cheesy), you can quickly ramp up their damage potential to Striker territory.

Even something simple like a Bloodclaw weapon (AV again, take enhancement bonus in damage for 2X enhancement bonus extra damage) can make a big difference.

Under optimal conditions --ie, while Bloodied, using a Bloodclaw battle axe, and under the effect of Wrath of the Gods-- my Dragonborn paladin does 1d10+19 w/his at-will.

Fourth... having to split your item budget between a weapon and an implement is a problem. We allow paladins to use their weapons as implements.

Fifth... throw some undead at the paladin. Being able to generate Radiant damage (w/a weapon attack) against vulnerable opponents will have him feeling more useful in no time.
 

Dungeon Delver's Guide

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top