Unpopular opinions go here

[Lanefan]

When I see the word "diegetic" the first thing that leaps to mind goes something like:

"Dear, did you remember to take your diegetics this morning?"

 

[AnotherGuy]

Unless Im not seeing the post for some reason, I am not finding where you did that at all.
Note that I explicitly called this out as a better way of doing it, so the apparent absence of what you said is what prompted my last comment.

No worries, it was one of my initial posts when I mentioned 13th warrior

Given Americans seldom use kilometers to begin with, much less often enough to use slang for it, this is a bit of a reach.

I think the bit of a reach is Thor using clicks. I would have been just as surprised if he had used miles or km.
They could have used a known measurement of distance common to the ancient/old Scandanavian nations or changed the sentence completely so as not to use it.

And I won't bother commenting on you being thrown out of a movie by that, of all things.
Language isn't the end all be all of worldbuilding; particularly when your suggestion is to just throw in a couple lines in a random Scandinavian language for no actual reason or purpose. A conlang would at least be actual worldbuilding, even if it still doesn't serve any purpose.

It is not the be all and end all but if that is the standard by which we need to measure every aspect of a movie well then that's the reason we get the sludge coming out of hollywood these days. Cause no one really cares anymore, this isn't the be all and end all, that isn't the be all and end all and so we go on and on until we get to the plot holes like in Supes where Cavill's Kal El just rocks up with no papers at secure military sites dealing with alien artifacts and just gets work.

We are mostly DMs here, many of us life-time DMs, we pick apart APs and build stronger backstories and open enhancing AP threads...etc because we care about world-building and we care about the stories that are told at our tables. When I see a movie I expect a certain level of logic, internal consistency and at the very least pride. But what we often get is sloppiness.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Why do you assume that "accessible" means "no artistic integrity"?

Part of art is communicating ideas. Accessibility means communicating ideas to those who wouldn't normally be able to access it. IMO, art that is accessible has more artistic integrity than art that tries to gatekeep who can appreciate it.

Removing subtitles as a concept damages artistic integrity even if it increases accessibility for those unable or unwilling to read.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Tabletop RPGs are not video games and the things they can learn about successful design from video games is limited. It would be bad design -- and bad business -- to try and force a particular "right" or "expected" way to play D&D given it is wildly successful exactly because people can make it what they want at their own table.

Bad business, maybe. Not bad design.

 

[Indaarys]

Tabletop RPGs are not video games and the things they can learn about successful design from video games is limited.

Game design is game design. Doesn't matter what the medium is.

What you're saying is basically the equivalent of saying ttrpgs can't learn from successful game design.

There is a reason after all, that its common practice in the video game industry to do paper prototypes; if a tabletop games couldn't benefit as you suggest this practice wouldn't work, nor would it have become practically assumed as the standard.

This conservative attitude is ultimately why the entire TTRPG industry is in a rut and isn't really innovating much anymore.

It would be bad design -- and bad business -- to try and force a particular "right" or "expected" way to play D&D given it is wildly successful exactly because people can make it what they want at their own table.

If you're "forcing" it you're not actually following the recommendation.

And more over, this glosses over the entire foundational concept of gameplay loops and why they exist, which is heavily interwined with the intended play experience.

Gameplay loops don't have to "force" you to play in a particular way to be effective, but they are what makes the game actually fun to keep playing, and not having any literally means you have no game at all.

Even big sandbox games with no objectives at all other than "Screw around" have gameplay loops. (Screw around > have fun > screw around > have fun > etc etc)

I think the bit of a reach is Thor using clicks. I would have been just as surprised if he had used miles or km.
They could have used a known measurement of distance common to the ancient/old Scandanavian nations or changed the sentence completely so as not to use it.

To be frank I can't remember there ever being a scene where Thor had to call out a distance in the movies to begin with, regardless of the word used.

But its also important to recognize, still, that these movies are mass entertainment intended to be as widely accessible as possible. These kinds of concerns just aren't going to be of any to the developers of these films, and it frankly would miss the point to focus on it.

Hell, even Tolkien didn't just slap in languages willy nilly and the whole point of his world was to give his languages a place to live. Where it exists is either translated diegetically or is intended to be obscurred from the POV the reader follows, which is also diegetic. If Frodo doesn't understand what some Elves are saying, neither does the reader.

But Tolkien also went to great lengths to construct his conlangs, and they serve a multitude of purposes in the story. He didn't just pick a random language and threw it in.

When I see a movie I expect a certain level of logic, internal consistency and at the very least pride.

And you do get them, in the good ones anyway. Just because they don't do something to satisfy a particular hang up you have doesn't mean they don't.

 

[Reynard]

Game design is game design. Doesn't matter what the medium is.

That is a completely ridiculous statement.

What you're saying is basically the equivalent of saying ttrpgs can't learn from successful game design.

That is not at all what I said.

If you aren't going to respond to what I said, I don't see much point in the discussion.

 

[Faolyn]

Removing subtitles as a concept damages artistic integrity even if it increases accessibility for those unable or unwilling to read.

How many people are actually saying subtitles should be removed, versus subtitles are not the end-all and be-all of accessibility?

 

[Thomas Shey]

Subtitles must be Schroedinger's Accessibility: they are at once exclusionary for those that have difficulty reading, and inclusionary for those that have difficulty hearing.

I think it makes a difference if they're literally presenting the same data both ways, in contrast to language subtitles, which aren't.

 

[Indaarys]

I apparently got blocked so Ill just note that whether one intends to or not, the words they say mean things and can very easily imply things you didn't intend to say.

Especially when one is insisting on a very narrow and conservative view of a particular subject, and makes firm declarations from that narrow view.

TTRPGs and video games are not fundamentally different when it comes to game design. They are different mediums and as such there are practices and methods that will be specific to their respective mediums, but those specifics are not in question in the context of this thread. What is is more fundamental to all games, hence the discussion on gameplay loops and how that ties in to the intended play experience that virtually every game has to actually decide on at some point, that apparently went ignored.

After all, its often repeated mantra in game design that you have to be able to say what you're game is actually about. And as much as I find it grating, as so many just repeat it rather emptily (as they don't actually understand the implications; what Ive noted here is what its talking about), it is a pretty important question, and one that, if you have no answer, is going to lead to your game being unfocused as it goes in every direction with no underlying purpose.

 

[Micah Sweet]

How many people are actually saying subtitles should be removed, versus subtitles are not the end-all and be-all of accessibility?

The makers of popular film and television, apparently. That what I was responding to.