unrestricted supernal or abyssal and actual game power?

[mattdm]

So, am I missing something, or is the restriction on supernal and abyssal at first level (i.e., without the Linguist feat) basically a "default campaign setting" feature and not a mechanical limitation? That is, is there any particular reason these languages are actually more powerful, other than that they might let you talk to gods?

It's a little weird to me that these are restricted but one can learn Primordial in kindergarten.....

I'm therefore considering saying that in general, starting languages should be those of PC races, but that any of the other languages are okay when it fits the character background.

Does anyone see a problem with that which I've overlooked? Thanks!

 

[garyh]

I (and my DM) must have missed that part of the PHB, as I gave my tiefling Supernal - seemed like a good fit. Yeah, I don't see why those ought to be restricted.

 

[Jhaelen]

So, am I missing something, or is the restriction on supernal and abyssal at first level (i.e., without the Linguist feat) basically a "default campaign setting" feature and not a mechanical limitation? That is, is there any particular reason these languages are actually more powerful, other than that they might let you talk to gods?

I don't know about abyssal, but when you're speaking supernal, everyone can understand you. They'll think you have spoken in their native language. That's a significant advantage.

 

[FireLance]

I don't know about abyssal, but when you're speaking supernal, everyone can understand you. They'll think you have spoken in their native language. That's a significant advantage.

I think it only works that way if you have an Immortal origin (from page something in the DMG). Your character wouldn't get this benefit if he was a member of a core race and probably most non-core ones.

So yes, I don't think there would be any problems in allowing a PC to select Supernal as a starting language.

 

[DracoSuave]

Is it a signifigant advantage? No.

Is it cool to have certain languages you can't learn without taking the effort to learn them thru abnormal means? Yes.

D&D3 had languages that were almost as tough to learn at level 1.

 

[ObsidianCrane]

The initial restriction is in the languages section of the PHB.

The DMG (pg 171) says that Supernal and Abyssal include "words of power - words whose syllables contain the raw magic of creation or primordial evil" (skipped a little) "Player characters can't know these languages initially. They might eventually learn the basics of communicating in these tongues, but without mastering these mighty sounds."

So basically its really hard to learn these languages because of their connection to those uber forces, and the fact you have to leave parts of the language out, inhibiting your ability to communicate with these languages. Somehow I can see feats emerging for Epic level that let you master the Words of Power bit of the languages, or an Epic Destiny tied to them.

 

[mattdm]

Is it a signifigant advantage? No.

Is it cool to have certain languages you can't learn without taking the effort to learn them thru abnormal means? Yes.

D&D3 had languages that were almost as tough to learn at level 1.

In other words, it's basically a setting thing. For my second 4E campaign, I'll probably develop a more complicated system of languages, because I (and my players, at least to some degree!) find that fun. But for now, I'm sticking roughly to the default setting — but I'm willing to bend for good character concepts.

The initial restriction is in the languages section of the PHB.

The DMG (pg 171) says that Supernal and Abyssal include "words of power - words whose syllables contain the raw magic of creation or primordial evil" (skipped a little) "Player characters can't know these languages initially. They might eventually learn the basics of communicating in these tongues, but without mastering these mighty sounds."

So basically its really hard to learn these languages because of their connection to those uber forces, and the fact you have to leave parts of the language out, inhibiting your ability to communicate with these languages. Somehow I can see feats emerging for Epic level that let you master the Words of Power bit of the languages, or an Epic Destiny tied to them.

Ah, thanks. That's exactly what I was looking for. Interestingly, though, by the PH, when you take the Linguist feat, "you can now speak, read, and write those languages fluently" — with no restrictions on mastering certain words.

In the more-complicated system of languages alluded to above, I'd probably have a "Celestial" language, which would basically be Church Latin. It'd be derived from Supernal, but without the words of power and with a much-symplified grammar.

But for now, I think I'll allow it where it fits for players' background.

 

[Wolfwood2]

I am thinking of dispensing with mechanical handling of languages completely and just leave it as a roleplaying thing. At character creation, write down what languages it makes sense for your character to know. As the game progresses, if your PC makes an effort to pick up a language, he'll eventually learn it. I would especially do this if I was actually interested in having a wider variety of languages in the campaign world.

Yes, some players will try to include as many languages as they can in their character background. If being a polygot rocks their boat, I could not care less.

 

[Nifft]

It's a flavor thing. I'm probably going to adapt my language rules to 4e, distinguishing between mortal tongues and languages of power.

It's a little weird to me that these are restricted but one can learn Primordial in kindergarten.....

Ever had to take care of a bunch of kindergarteners?

Cheers, -- N