D&D 5E Unsandboxing Princes of the Apocalypse

[mattcolville]

Would this work?

I've already got a sandboxy setting with adventures littered around and I'd like to add the Temple of Elemental Evil from Princes of the Apocalypse.

But I don't want to add all the sandbox elements to my setting. I'd rather just pick one of the pre-dungeons like the Monastery or the Keep and then get the heroes from there to the Temple.

Is that a straightforward option?

 

[lumenbeing]

It can be. The book tells you the recommended levels for each keep and each temple quadrant. I forget which keep is the most advanced, but iirc it's Scarlet Moon Hall. So you could drop that it there.

 

[Uller]

Fildrigar did a nice document that should be helpful to you:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/rpgdownloads.php?do=download&downloadid=1248

 

[ninjayeti]

Yeah, I don't see any problems with this approach.

If you are trying to eliminate the "sandboxyness" you might also want to tweak the dungeon so that the levels have a liner progression like a traditional dungeon - i.e. players must go through level 1 (the air temple) to get to level 2 (the water temple), etc.

 

[mattcolville]

Yeah, I don't see any problems with this approach.

If you are trying to eliminate the "sandboxyness" you might also want to tweak the dungeon so that the levels have a liner progression like a traditional dungeon - i.e. players must go through level 1 (the air temple) to get to level 2 (the water temple), etc.

This is where I'm currently stuck. I'm having a hard time figuring out the logic of this adventure.

As far as I can tell, the players can go to any of the four haunted strongholds in the valley, and each of them has a hook leading to one of the four levels of the Temple of Elemental Evil.

But that doesn't make sense to me, as each level is of a higher level than the last. So players could easily end up way over their heads!

Maybe that's the point? Get in over your heads, retreat?

 

[ehenning]

This is where I'm currently stuck. I'm having a hard time figuring out the logic of this adventure.

As far as I can tell, the players can go to any of the four haunted strongholds in the valley, and each of them has a hook leading to one of the four levels of the Temple of Elemental Evil.

But that doesn't make sense to me, as each level is of a higher level than the last. So players could easily end up way over their heads!

Maybe that's the point? Get in over your heads, retreat?

Definitely looks this way. I'm just about to start my campaign, and I have a feeling the party will hit at least one of the strongholds in wrong order. If they do the 5th level stronghold at 4th level, it becomes much harder, but not deadly. If they go straight to the toughest strongholds, they should quickly realize that this is too much and have to retreat, or risk a TPK.

There are notes in the AP that seem to anticipate this, such as what happens in certain areas if they have been cleared once (repopulated with different monster 2d4 days later, etc).

The AP uses the four prophets to allow for the progression. If you limit it to one of the prophets and then go straight to their Temple, then to the final encounter with the BBG, you may need to adjust the end, but not by much in my opinion.

 

[mattcolville]

Fildrigar did a nice document that should be helpful to you:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/rpgdownloads.php?do=download&downloadid=1248

This *is* useful, thanks. I often start by taking the map from an adventure, printing it out at 75% and marking it up with notes. I prefer running from the map, rather than the text of the adventure. And it let's me mark up where the entrances and exits are.

They could have done a better job illustrating the physical relationship of the different levels to each other!

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I think they did a good job. The four temples connect to each other.

You have to just walk a certain way and you are in a different temple.

 

[mattcolville]

I think they did a good job. The four temples connect to each other.

You have to just walk a certain way and you are in a different temple.

I meant *literally* illustrate it better. When I look at the map, it doesn't say "this way to the. . ." on the map. Nor is there a master map showing the layout of the whole place.

Lots of other adventures have done this, it's not something I'm inventing here in this thread.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I meant *literally* illustrate it better. When I look at the map, it doesn't say "this way to the. . ." on the map. Nor is there a master map showing the layout of the whole place.

Lots of other adventures have done this, it's not something I'm inventing here in this thread.

Once again I think it's illustrated fine. Along with the Adventure saying which leads to to what. They fit together like a puzzle see.



The fire map is the only one that is slightly off.

 

[mattcolville]

Once again I think it's illustrated fine.

Well, there's no illustration showing how the different levels fit together. Nor are there any labels on the map reading "this way to the. . ."

So the connections between the levels aren't illustrated *at all*. Much less "well." I mean, I'm glad you like it. That illustration you made is great! Be nice if something like it were in the book!

 

[lumenbeing]

Well, there's no illustration showing how the different levels fit together. Nor are there any labels on the map reading "this way to the. . ."

So the connections between the levels aren't illustrated *at all*. Much less "well." I mean, I'm glad you like it. That illustration you made is great! Be nice if something like it were in the book!

I'm not sure why you need labels "on" the map when the whole dungeon is keyed. The connections are explained well enough IMO.

The only gotcha that I would point out is that once you do have this mega dungeon laid out, the haunted keeps with their individual entrances to these underground levels don't exactly line up on the surface world.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I'm not sure why you need labels "on" the map when the whole dungeon is keyed. The connections are explained well enough IMO.

The only gotcha that I would point out is that once you do have this mega dungeon laid out, the haunted keeps with their individual entrances to these underground levels don't exactly line up on the surface world.

There is a lot of space between the haunted Keeps and the entrances to the Temple. An Underground River, a massive amount of stairs, A long tunnel, a large cave under the keep. They don't need to line up because their is a good deal of space between the entrances.

 

[Agamon]

Definitely looks this way. I'm just about to start my campaign, and I have a feeling the party will hit at least one of the strongholds in wrong order. If they do the 5th level stronghold at 4th level, it becomes much harder, but not deadly. If they go straight to the toughest strongholds, they should quickly realize that this is too much and have to retreat, or risk a TPK.

One level off isn't anything to worry about. 5e's flatter math makes this kind of thing a lot more doable that the previous couple of editions.

The PCs in my game got to Red Larch at Level 5, and the place they first found out about was Scarlet Moon Hall. It was a tough fight when they first got there, but even after retreating after the battle in the courtyard, and the defences the cultists put up subsequently, they still cleaned house when they got back.

We last ended with them finding the entrance to the temple...they might be in for a rude awakening if they head down there, but I let them know this is a sandbox and that not every encounter is keyed to their level. They're pretty careful when they discover something new.

 

[LapBandit]

How can they be connected if they are so far apart on the map? Are they on another plane?

 

[Agamon]

How can they be connected if they are so far apart on the map? Are they on another plane?

Like MonsterEnvy said, the temple levels aren't right beneath the keeps.

 

[LapBandit]

Like MonsterEnvy said, the temple levels aren't right beneath the keeps.

Not in love with that answer. I'm inclined to connect them by long geographic features but not to each other except for connect via the Fane of the Eye.

 

[Agamon]

Not in love with that answer. I'm inclined to connect them by long geographic features but not to each other except for connect via the Fane of the Eye.

You could do it that way. But the temple is a single temple, built by dwarves. The fane was built beneath it by drow. Nothing wrong with changing that up, but that's how it was written.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Not in love with that answer. I'm inclined to connect them by long geographic features but not to each other except for connect via the Fane of the Eye.

I would not do that. The temple works so much better when it's connected together. Pretty much look at the map of the Valley. The Temple is more or less underground in the middle of the 4 haunted keeps. Each keep has a pathway near it or in it that leads underground to the Temple.

 

[lumenbeing]

There is a lot of space between the haunted Keeps and the entrances to the Temple. An Underground River, a massive amount of stairs, A long tunnel, a large cave under the keep. They don't need to line up because their is a good deal of space between the entrances.

Okay fine, but IMO they could line up better than they do. On the overland map, Sacred Stone Monastery is south of Rivergard Keep. But the Temple of the Black Earth is actually north of the Temple of the Crushing Wave. That's backwards.
The underground stream from RK to ToCW is described as being 3 miles long in a westerly direction from the keep (not south). The cave passage leading from SSM to ToBE is only 1/4 mile. Each hex on the Dessarin Valley map is 10miles. The two Keeps are at least 1 hex apart from each other.
Since the location of Sacred Stone Monastery doesn't make sense in terms of the "Shallow Graves" placement either, it may be worth moving it.