D&D 5E Unused content

[Neonchameleon]

For me, the PDK wasn't fun because it didn't give you anything new to do. The 7th level feature is cool so I'm talking about the other features. It just made what you already do better. But weirdly that was hindering to play because I couldn't do my normal things when I wanted to. I needed to hold my Action Surge and Second Wind for when it was better for other people. Personally, I would like it more if these abilities were their own things.

Fair enough

As for the Cavalier, it is an amazing tank. Unwavering Mark is a bit wordy with the extra attack. Definitely room for improvement there. But it is a perfect subclass for a fighter that wants to lock down targets, wade into the fray with an ally/mount by their side, and take hits better than most.

I'd hardly call the Cavalier amazing - I've played 4e. And given the limitations on its abilities (punish attack Str times/long rest, Warding Maneuver Con times/long rest) there are questions about whether the Sentinel feat is better for tanking. The opportunity cost for Sentinel is certainly a lot lower.

 

[DeviousQuail]

Fair enough

I'd hardly call the Cavalier amazing - I've played 4e. And given the limitations on its abilities (punish attack Str times/long rest, Warding Maneuver Con times/long rest) there are questions about whether the Sentinel feat is better for tanking. The opportunity cost for Sentinel is certainly a lot lower.

The marking portion of unwavering mark is more important than the attack. Disadvantage on attacks against anyone other than you is great control and it has unlimited uses. Warding maneuver might be almost as good as the shield spell. +1d8 AC for you or someone near you and if the attack still hits they get resistance to the damage is nothing to sneeze at. Not having to take sentinel since you get most of it as part of your subclass also frees up a feat/asi for anything else. It may not be as good as a defender in 4e but we're not playing 4e. Very little in 5e can match their combo tanking and control.

ETA: All that said I just don't think Cavalier belongs in the same conversation as PDK, Champion, or Arcane Archer and it's not what this thread is about. Agree to disagree?

 

[Neonchameleon]

ETA: All that said I just don't think Cavalier belongs in the same conversation as PDK, Champion, or Arcane Archer and it's not what this thread is about. Agree to disagree?

Fair enough. And I do think the Cavalier is better than the PDK, Champion, or Arcane Archer. I just think that in conversation it belongs with the lower tiers rather than the Eldritch Knight, Rune Knight, Psi Warrior, and Tasha's Battlemaster.

 

[ECMO3]

In 5E, in actual play, have you used any of these at all during the time that they have been published options? I will be posting several polls separately to get a feel for what people are actually doing.

I voted no, but that does not mean a whole lot. I have not played most subclasses.

You could have asked about Peace Cleric, Gloomstalker and Echo Knight and the answer would have been the same, I have not personally played those either (although others at the table have).

There are 116 official subclasses, as a PC I have personally played 28 of them I think.

 

[ECMO3]

ETA: All that said I just don't think Cavalier belongs in the same conversation as PDK, Champion, or Arcane Archer and it's not what this thread is about. Agree to disagree?

I have played both Arcane Archers and Cavaliers.

Arcane Archer is pretty powerful actually, grasping arrow is awesome and seeking arrow is conditionally awesome. The 7th level feature really works well with the sharpshooter feat. I think AAs stack up pretty well with battlemaster and I think it is a stronger subclass than Cavalier or the others you mention. It is not equal to the best fighters though which are Rune Knight, Eldritch knight and Echo Knight IMO.

 

[Hussar]

While I haven't played them, I have seen both the Elements Monk and the Mastermind Rogue played (the Mastermind twice). All three characters were great, the players were very happy with them and had a blast. Which, to my mind, is the ONLY criteria that matters.

 

[DeviousQuail]

I have played both Arcane Archers and Cavaliers.

Arcane Archer is pretty powerful actually, grasping arrow is awesome and seeking arrow is conditionally awesome. The 7th level feature really works well with the sharpshooter feat. I think AAs stack up pretty well with battlemaster and I think it is a stronger subclass than Cavalier or the others you mention. It is not equal to the best fighters though which are Rune Knight, Eldritch knight and Echo Knight IMO.

There is nothing I have to say about the Arcane Archer that hasn't already been said better by other people. But if you are curious why I personally don't like it you can check out the spoiler.

Spoiler: My thoughts on AA

Arcane Archer Lore: A great non combat feature. You even get options to choosr from, which is A+ in my book.

Arcane Shot: The design of this feature is totally different than other fighter subclasses. I don't want homogeneous designs but I'll take it over worse designs. Not scaling in number of uses or power until levels 15 and 18 respectively is a design choice I disagree with. Especially, when the number of uses per short rest is capped at two. The shots themselves are fine even if they aren't what I would have done.

Magic Arrow: Fine as an accompanying feature at this level. Certainly in line with the magical nature of the subclass. I don't love that it's arrows only but that's a small gripe. WotC is clearly afraid of making sling stones and bolts too cool.

Curving Shot: Honestly, this is the real defining feature of the subclass for me. The mechanics and flavor are great. As you said it partners very well with SS.

Ever Ready Shot: Other classes have similar features to this one like the monk, sorcerer, and battle master. It is a mechanic that I hate with a passion because it takes too long to come online. This should be a level 7 feature at the latest. Or do what the Psi Warrior did and let the archer recover a use of arcane shot once per short rest.

Overall:

• It doesn't let you do the cool thing you want to do enough.
• It fails to do anything new after level 7.
  • The fighter chassis already has this issue after level 9 and the subclass shouldn't copy that mistake.
• You get two rounds of combat per short rest where you aren't just a slightly more accurate fighter with a bow.
• I think a better execution of the arcane archer idea can be done with other classes like warlocks, rangers, and bards.

While I have different concerns with PDK and Champion these are my reasons why I think AA belongs with them on the lowest tier of fighter subclasses. The Cavalier may not be the most powerful fighter subclass but I do think the design execution is better, the features are more varied, it has a good balance of resource limited and unlimited use features, and it barely uses it's bonus action so it's a great target for PAM, GWM, Shield Master, dual wielding, or any other bonus action heavy ability.

 

[ECMO3]

There is nothing I have to say about the Arcane Archer that hasn't already been said better by other people. But if you are curious why I personally don't like it you can check out the spoiler.

Well that hasn't been my experience. I really love arcane shot and have found it very fun to play.

The Cavalier's bonus action Mark attack is usable less than Arcane Shot generally. The Cavalier I played had an 8 strength, so I could only use it once per long rest. It would have been more if I played a higher strength character, but still not as much as Arcane Shot I don't think.

 

[DeviousQuail]

Well that hasn't been my experience. I really love arcane shot.

The Cavalier's bonus action Mark attack is usable less than Arcane Shot generally. The Cavalier I played had an 8 strength, so I could only use it once per long rest. It would have been more if I played a higher strength character, but not as much as an AA I don't think.

Much like Barbs you can play a dex based Cavalier but you'd be intentionally working against the subclasses mechanics. You could also play an 8 Int AA but then any arcane shot with a saving throw would be terrible. I don't think that's a great way to judge the class. But you are right, an AA can do their arcane shot 6 times a day if you do the 2 short rest per day style of play. Maybe more after reaching level 15. A lot of Cavaliers can use their extra attack only 3-5 times a day if the conditions are met. I just don't worry about that much because the extra attack is not what makes that ability worthwhile. It's forcing the target to have disadvantage on attacks if they go after someone else that's good. That ability has no cost other than actually hitting the target with an attack so it will get way more use than arcane shot.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I think the premise of this poll is dubious. There are far more subclasses in the game than people ever make player characters. So the VAST MAJORITY of subclasses are "unused content". as an estimate, across the lifetime of 5e I think I have seen about 30 player characters actually played, but there are something like 120 official subclasses. So anything that scores higher than 25% is pretty popular.