D&D 5E Unused content

[Blue]

@Ruin Explorer We have a couple of people telling that in actual play they had a good experience with the Mastermind Rogue. Have you played it or seen it played, or is this based on reading? It could be one of those that is unpopular because it reads like it doesn't play well, but that beats expectations when played by someone who enjoys the style of play. I've seen people say the same thing about bards.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

@Ruin Explorer We have a couple of people telling that in actual play they had a good experience with the Mastermind Rogue. Have you played it or seen it played, or is this based on reading? It could be one of those that is unpopular because it reads like it doesn't play well, but that beats expectations when played by someone who enjoys the style of play. I've seen people say the same thing about bards.

I've played it (briefly), but that's immaterial.

When you're asking questions like this, honestly you need to think about the specifics of the criticism, and not be slip in the easy temptation to generalize and assume. You're doing exactly that - as shown with your statement re: Bards. It's a very extreme generalization. Also, personally, I've never heard anyone say anything like that about Bards. They read like they're borderline OP, and as someone who plays them regularly, they play borderline OP (like most full casters).

My point is, look the actual criticism I've made. I'm talking about specific issues within the rules that the class faces. I'm not saying "Yo this subclass sux imo lolz" or something where generalized "well people say that about other stuff!" would apply. I've specifically criticising particular aspects of the subclass. It's unpopular for three reasons:

1) It's not a common conceit for a Rogue-type character, the Mastermind. It's not unheard-of, but it's not very Rogue-specific (for a D&D Rogue anyway - in PF2E it's a whole different class I note). So that already limits the popularity.

2) The mechanics don't really reflect the "Mastermind"-type character you might see with say, Kaz Brekker from the Six of Crows (or the recent Shadow and Bone Netflix series, which sorts of drops him in a lot earlier than the books), or Locke Lamora from the series of the same name. They make a vague attempt to - you can see the influence. But it's not done very well because it's not very imaginative or effective in terms of evoking a criminal mastermind. Almost any Rogue subclass could do that as well, arguably an Assassin (oddly enough) would be more effective in some ways due to Infiltration Expertise (and later Impostor), and an Inquisitive is more similar to some mastermind-types (albeit also to their nemeses). Part of this is because D&D 5E nearly totally eschews "narrative" stuff, which masterminds kind of rely on (interestingly, there is an adventure for 4E, which I often mention, Blood Money by Logan Bonner, which does allow these sort of narrative shenanigans, so the mechanical potential is there).

3) As I explained, the mechanics just aren't very effective. They're very "on paper" and very DM-reliant. The reason people are doing well with it is the same as a lot of classes in D&D 5E - the basic chassis is solid, even if the subclass doesn't add much. A Rogue without a subclass entirely would still be a pretty solid class in 5E. The issue is of course than a handful of subclasses add a ton of mechanical power, and others, like this one, do not.

Re: Help, one thing I've seen on these boards is maybe most people misuse Help, at least by RAW/RAI standards. They let it apply to things it can't, they let people redirect it after the conditions fail to be met, they let it apply to multiple attack rolls, and so on. I don't actually criticise any of that. I think that's probably for the best, in fact! But that's another aspect of the DM-dependence this subclass in particular has.

Also it's not just about "enjoying the style of play". It requires the DM to also enjoy that, and to providing an adventure environment where that works. Is that true of some other classes/subclasses? Yes. A small minority, but yes.

 

[Tinker-TDC]

What do I vote for if I've played all 3 and 4 elements is my least-favorite Monk, PDK is my second least-favorite Fighter (after Champion), and Mastermind is my most-favorite Rogue?

 

[Unwise]

On a semi-related note, regarding the Mastermind not really fulfilling the fantasy of the its trope, my gaming group did tinker with an option that captured it very well. We made a version of the Mastermind that had "preparation points", they had X (proficiency?) amount per day and could only spend them if they had an hour of free time off-screen previous to a caper.

Each point could be spent to do anything that could semi-realistically have been done previously.

For instance:
The party fails a stealth check sneaking up to the fortified manor. The Mastermind says "Don't worry, that guard on the roof looking at us is Dave, he is an old friend of mine / I bribed him earlier".
The party healer goes down and is dying, the Mastermind pulls out a healing potion that was not on his character sheet. He crosses off the gold cost, he bought it earlier when he was in town.
Things go terribly, the party has to jump out of the third story window to escape. Luckily the Mastermind thought they might need a quick exit. There is a wagon full of soft hay to land on, and maybe ride away with. The Mastermind crosses off the appropriate gold cost.

<edit> In actual play, this really helped to get the action going, as people still did planning, but did not agonize over every little aspect of a plan. They knew that Inigo the Mastermind will "fill in the details". As I was GMing, if I wanted the action to move on, I could say that after they spend a day scoping out the target location, following its denizens etc, they could get a bonus of X amount of preparation points. Sometimes it let us skip the dreaded 'shopping episode'.

 

[James Gasik]

I admit when I first saw the Mastermind, I was hoping to be able to play Nate Ford from Leverage. The ranged Help is handy, but it's not quite what I hoped it would be.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The thing to me is that the Mastermind has the wrong name. It's almost the opposite of a mastermind - a last minute pitch-hitter and support rather than someone who plans things in advance. But by the standards of non-Arcane Trickster rogue subclasses it's fine. And if we only count pre-Tasha's it might even be the best of a bad bunch. 90% of campaigns don't reach level 13 so I'm only going to look at the level 3 and level 9 abilities.

Mastermind level 3

• Three tool and two language proficiencies plus mimicry. Not a bad combination for what it's obviously designed for.
• Use your bonus action to give other people advantage. Your bonus action is already overloaded - but this is still nice and flexible and useful both in combat and out. Very useful out of combat as it's a freebie.

Mastermind level 9

• A set of niche social abilities that take a minute to use. Can be useful in exploration - but not that useful.

Now let's compare to the other rogue subclasses.

Assassin. Two proficiencies. Level 3 ability is situational - you both need surprise and to win initiative for it to trigger at all. Level 9 notoriously takes a week to use and is at best a ribbon ability. The Mastermind is IMO significantly better unless you have a very friendly DM. Honestly this has all the non-concept problems of the Mastermind turned up to 11.

Thief. Better at climbing and jumping - two things that get a lot less useful as you level and get flying. Fast Hands is extremely situational (occasionally scene stealing but will almost never come up). Level 9 gives you advantage to sneak slowly. Given the priority rogues place on sneaking to the point of Expertise and the fact that at level 11 they will never make bad rolls I'm ranking the thief behind the Mastermind. It of course also wants a friendly DM for the sleight of hand as bonus action to be relevant.

So the Mastermind is at least competitive with and IMO at advantage against both non-magic PHB rogue subclasses. If we're using the PHB as a benchmark there is nothing at all wrong with the Mastermind. Now onto Xanathar's

Inquisitive. Extra uses for bonus actions at level 3 - in this case trying to spot someone (actually useful) or decipher clues (not so useful). Also better at insight and can use Insight to take advantage of Sneak Attack. Not really that useful as (a) it's unreliable and (b) it encourages you not to focus fire - you get to use Sneak Attack against a foe adjacent to an ally. At level 9 it's advantage on perception and insight if you move slowly. Again not seeing this as that great.

Scout. Two free skills with Expertise. Also use your reaction to disengage - which is situationally useful (especially when you have a normal reaction-to-take-half-damage at level 5). Yay? At level 9 you walk faster. Useful - but again situational. Not seeing this as notably better than the Mastermind.

Swashbuckler. Can sneak attack when dueling, can disengage for free, and gains charisma to initiative checks at level 3. Level 9 gains a taunt and a charm. This probably is the pick of the bunch.

Frankly the Mastermind isn't out of line with the other Xanathar's subclasses either. So onto Tasha's

Phantom. Level 3: one floating skill and the ability to do a half-sneak attack proficiency times per day. I don't think this is notably better - but the Level 9 ability to have soul trinkets for advantage on Con saves, extra damage, or a single question answered with no obligation to be truthful is.

Soulknife. OK. So this is a psychic subclass that can throw down with the Arcane Trickster. Great at skills, has telepathy, has a ranged telepathic stab at L3. At L9 can turn misses into hits - and can teleport as a bonus action a limited number of times.

So. To sum up. The problem isn't that the Mastermind is a bad subclass. It's that the majority of the rogue subclasses are bad - and this needs fixing. The Mastermind is in line with how the class was benchmarked - and doesn't belong on the same list with the PDK or the Four Elements Monk.

 

[DeviousQuail]

Never seen or played Mastermind so nothing to say there. I disliked my brief stint with the PDK. The idea was cool but my experience over a few sessions of play was that I'd rather play any other fighter subclass. This was back when we only had PHB, SCAG, and Xanathar's. I have not played a 4E monk but a player in my group did. It was fine. What sucked was that she switched to a homebrew variant that was just way cooler and it sort of retroactively made the previous experience worse.

 

[MostlyHarmless42]

I have had a Mastermind Rogue player who enjoyed the hell out of it. She liked to fluff her help action as hitting on enemies mid battle in order to confuse them. She didn't have any issue with it what-so-ever other, though she's did end up taking a level of cleric randomly in order to add a bit more roleplaying to her character. She's not the sort to care about optimization though, and enjoyed that she got to help others.

Bear in mind that I do feel any poll on this website is going to be heavily sckewed towards optimizers.

I myself have played a Purple Dragon Knight fighter and definitely enjoyed it. I had a high charisma, shield master, and the inspiring leader feat. Character was lots of fun. The trick I found was to just not horde my second wind and action surge for fights that might not ever come and just use them when I could. Additionally I didn't necessarily feel like I was holding the party back at all, with many occasions where i would bring up downed members by second winding.

That all said, I did still conclude that the archetype needed a bit of love bu the end of it. My current homebrew is to bump all the abilities "down" to lower levels. Basically I give them both the level 3 features and what should've been their 7th level at 3rd. It's a small bump that makes them feel less bad at 3rd level, and let's them get the 10th level feature at 7th (giving it to them a bit quicker). I've also toyed with letting the reaction ability proc for cantrips as well rather than just weapon attacks, but currently I've not done it.

To fill in the gap I basically gave them at 15th level the Leadership ability from the Hobgoblin Warlord monster. It's pretty sounds pretty potent, but it's really not that much more powerful than bless once a short rest, and is perfectly fine for a 15th level Feature.

An alternative 3rd level feature could also be granting them the Thaumaturgy cantrip as it's on theme with them to be able to shout loud on the battlefield.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Now that I come to think of it what's that wrong with the PDK compared to the other fighter subclasses? I mean it's pretty obviously not great - but assuming Rallying Cry can get people up from 0hp (being unconscious doesn't actually deafen you and Crawford's said this is RAI) it's not worse than the Champion or Arcane Archer. And honestly the Cavalier's a bit of a tangled mess as well.

Meanwhile the Four Elements Monk is fighting it out for third worst PHB subclass with the Champion. (The worst two are the Berserker that will get you killed and the Beastmaster that turns your campaign into an escort mission).

As for Four Elements the weird thing is that before Level 11 the only utility abilities on that list that isn't directly competing with your being a monk and just hitting things with your fists or weapons are Fangs of the fire Snake (1 ki for +10ft reach) and Shape The Flowing River (for large waterbending shenanigans).

 

[DeviousQuail]

Now that I come to think of it what's that wrong with the PDK compared to the other fighter subclasses? I mean it's pretty obviously not great - but assuming Rallying Cry can get people up from 0hp (being unconscious doesn't actually deafen you and Crawford's said this is RAI) it's not worse than the Champion or Arcane Archer. And honestly the Cavalier's a bit of a tangled mess as well.

For me, the PDK wasn't fun because it didn't give you anything new to do. The 7th level feature is cool so I'm talking about the other features. It just made what you already do better. But weirdly that was hindering to play because I couldn't do my normal things when I wanted to. I needed to hold my Action Surge and Second Wind for when it was better for other people. Personally, I would like it more if these abilities were their own things.

As for the Cavalier, it is an amazing tank. Unwavering Mark is a bit wordy with the extra attack. Definitely room for improvement there. But it is a perfect subclass for a fighter that wants to lock down targets, wade into the fray with an ally/mount by their side, and take hits better than most.